Oral Answers to Questions

TRADE AND INDUSTRY

The Secretary of State was asked—

Renewable Energy

Angela Watkinson: What steps his Department is taking to promote renewable energy.

Malcolm Wicks: Good morning, Mr. Speaker.
	The renewables obligation is the Government's key mechanism for encouraging renewable generation. This is supported by around £500 million of spending between 2002 and 2008 in the form of research and development, and capital grants on emerging low-carbon and renewable technologies.

Angela Watkinson: What steps will the Department take to make it easier for small and renewable electricity generators to connect to the national grid?

Malcolm Wicks: We can all be encouraged by several developments, such as the Chancellor's allocation of another £50 million for microgeneration, which will mean that there will be £80 million in all for that kind of technology. The successful private Member's Bill—it is now an Act—that was promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) includes several measures to encourage microgeneration. There have also been big developments in planning that will make it easier for people to establish microgeneration in their homes. That all shows the Government's support for such new energy technology.

David Kidney: There are significant parts of the country, especially rural areas, in which there is no mains gas. Until now, householders there have felt forced to rely on carbon sources such as oil and solid fuel to heat their homes. Is not the energy review an opportunity for us to make a reality of decentralised energy, as proposed by Greenpeace, in such rural areas by promoting, as a Government, district heating systems using power such as biomass, so that we can get renewable energy into significant parts of the country and give people a real choice for the first time about their sources of heat and power?

Malcolm Wicks: There is now an interesting debate, with much evidence, about the balance that we will need to strike as the century further unfolds, between the traditional system of power stations and the national grid—we will still need that, given the power that we require for our economy and householders—and newer kinds of technology, even though some of the ideas are quite old, such as combined heat and power, district heating—which some people are now calling distributive energy—microgeneration and the rest. We reflect on such issues as we approach the final stages of our energy review.

David Heathcoat-Amory: Is the Minister aware that a single giant electricity turbine is to be built in a very exposed position on the Mendip hills next to an area of outstanding natural beauty? The planning inspector who passed it ignored all planning considerations and gave priority to central Government targets for renewable energy. Does the Minister really think that vandalising the countryside in such a way, by putting up an expensive, subsidised and inefficient wind turbine, is anything more than a gesture that fails to measure up to the real problems of global warming?

Malcolm Wicks: I rather feel that this is the wrong Front Bench to respond to that question. I had understood that the right hon. Gentleman's Front-Bench team, to quote one of my favourite poets, was now "Tangled up in blue"—and green.

Peter Luff: Which poet?

Malcolm Wicks: Mr. Dylan. If these guys are going to modernise—

Peter Luff: That is not modern.

Malcolm Wicks: This discussion shows the challenge that we face. We will need a great deal of investment in power in the future, whether that is wind farms, marine technology or more traditional power stations of one kind or another. Although local issues are absolutely crucial—which is why we have a planning process—hon. Members cannot keep saying no to things. We will need to start saying yes if we are to have the energy, especially the clean energy, that our economy demands and our people expect.

David Taylor: I am not sure that I am the right Back Bencher—

Alan Duncan: It is not poetry in motion.

David Taylor: Despite the increased promotion of such energy, does the Minister agree that one of the things that is inhibiting take-up is confusion about green tariffs? Is it not about time that we had an accreditation or rating system so that consumers could know that their suppliers were providing exactly what they said they were, because uncertainty might lead them to conclude otherwise?

Malcolm Wicks: While there are major roles for the Government, industry and the rest to play on our future energy strategy, we also need individuals to become more aware of energy sources so that they can be the vanguard for the climate change agenda. More and more people are taking an interest in where their energy comes from—perhaps the development of smart metering is an idea that needs to be tested—and in microgeneration. We hope to encourage and enable that interest.

David Simpson: Will the Minister tell the House what measures the Government have taken to ensure that companies use more recycled material and what, if any, penalties they will impose if they do not comply?

Malcolm Wicks: Clearly, in terms of the environmental agenda, we all need to recycle more materials. Soon, the UK will implement what is inelegantly known as the WEEE directive on waste electrical and electronic equipment so that some of those materials can be recycled rather than going into landfill. There is the issue, too, of biomass and the use of new kinds of fuels in traditional power stations as well as smaller, perhaps mini, combined heat and power stations. The theme of using materials responsibly on our planet in waste policy—not wasted policy—and energy policy is particularly important.

Alan Duncan: The Minister for Trade and I are the living embodiment of microgeneration. Is not Britain far behind other countries in harnessing renewable power, and is there not a desperate need to spark a green energy revolution here? The Carbon Trust reports today that the Government's renewables obligation is not working. Unless it is urgently revised, the UK will meet only half of its renewable energy targets by 2020. Will the Minister make a commitment to undertake a fundamental overhaul of the renewables obligation to help us take a quantum leap forward?

Malcolm Wicks: I will not go down the route of considering whether microgeneration contributes to hot or cooler air, as that is too easy a follow-up. To be serious, although we welcome late arrivals at the party to save the planet, it was our Government who initiated the renewables obligation and who will spend £500 million by 2008 on such technologies. Some of those late arrivals are talking—and I welcome that—but we have acted on the environmental agenda. The renewables obligation is not cheap stuff, as it will be worth up to £1 billion to the renewables industry by the end of the decade. It is a substantial investment, mainly paid for by customers, both industrial and domestic, and it is the major way in which we are developing renewable technologies.

Alan Duncan: Later today, we will publish the interim findings of our own review, which I hope the Minister will welcome. If we share common ground, that is good for the country and for investment. The fact of the matter, however, is that UK CO2 emissions have risen in five of the past seven years, and are higher than they were when his party came to office in 1997. The Government have not done enough to reduce emissions. Should we not have an enhanced long-term carbon trading framework to guarantee emissions reductions and to incentivise renewable energy technology, so that the country's electricity supply can deliver green security both for us and for future generations?

Malcolm Wicks: I know that there is media, parliamentary and public interest and excitement about the outcome of the energy review—I had assumed that it was our review rather than the hon. Gentleman's—which we welcome. For once, politicians do not exaggerate when they say that the environmental question of safeguarding our planet for the future is vital not only for our democracy, but for all other democracies. That is why the Government have set a mid-century target—it is the most ambitious target that any Government have set—to reduce 1990 levels of CO2 emissions by 60 per cent. by 2050. That target is driving the energy review, but the hon. Gentleman must be a little more patient before we say exactly how we will tackle the problem. However, we are committed to doing so.

Nuclear Power

Robert Goodwill: What the Government's policy is on nuclear power.

Stephen Hammond: What the Government's policy is on nuclear power.

Tobias Ellwood: What plans he has to replace the UK's nuclear power reactors.

Philip Davies: What the Government's policy is on the continued use of nuclear power.

Alistair Darling: The Government will publish their proposals shortly.

Robert Goodwill: The outcome of the energy review with regard to nuclear power has hardly been the best kept secret in Whitehall. I assure the Secretary of State of the support of many Opposition Members during the difficult months ahead. However, in the light of the delays identified by the Environmental Audit Committee in delivering a new generation of power stations in the United Kingdom, does the right hon. Gentleman think we need to review the planning system in that regard before we embark on that route?

Alistair Darling: Yes, I do, and I have said so on many occasions. The planning system is a major obstacle to new energy generation, from whatever source. The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) has highlighted some of the problems. Of course, we must allow people to make their voices heard if they object to a particular proposal, but it is not in the national interest that applications, many of them for wind farms, are being held up for years. Bearing in mind that possibly a third of our generating capacity needs to be replaced in the next 20 years, the planning system needs to be overhauled.

Stephen Hammond: Given the Prime Minister's confirmation to the Liaison Committee on Tuesday that the Government have decided that there will be a new generation of nuclear power stations in the United Kingdom, can the Secretary of State tell us today, please, how many the Government intend to build and at what cost, and what the time scale will be?

Alistair Darling: The Government do not intend to build any generating plant of any description. The hon. Gentleman will have to wait until I publish the conclusions of the energy review. I think, though—following on from the earlier exchanges—that a mix of generating capacity has served this country well over the past 40 or 50 years, and I believe that a mix will continue to serve it well in the future.

Tobias Ellwood: In answer to the original question, the Secretary of State recognised that there is a problem with the planning system, but he did not offer a solution. It took 20 years to get a spark out of Dungeness nuclear reactor. What does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do to ensure that that does not occur again?

Alistair Darling: I take the hon. Gentleman's contribution to mean that he would support a reform of the planning laws. The last time the Government tried to reform the planning legislation, they ran into stiff opposition from the Conservatives and a great deal of opposition in the other place. I hope that this time, if we can get something approaching a consensus on how we generate our electricity, we can also get a consensus on how we achieve that. When I saw that the Leader of the Opposition had described wind farms as bird mincers, I began to wonder whether he was prepared to back his words on making sure that we have greener energy generation with the necessary action to ensure that we deliver it.

Philip Davies: Does the Secretary of State agree that nuclear power is desirable in order to guarantee security of energy supply and also to meet our environmental obligations in the future? May I urge him to stop dithering on the issue and face down those on the left wing of his own party, who want to put dogma before the best interests of the country?

Alistair Darling: The hon. Gentleman might want to have a word with his own Front-Bench team. The shadow Secretary of State made it clear earlier this year that he was hostile to nuclear power. We will make our proposals fairly shortly, but the Conservative party had better decide whether it is for or against nuclear power.

Alison Seabeck: I declare a registered interest. If the decision taken in due course is to replace some of our nuclear power stations as well to expand alternative technologies, we will clearly need expertise to take forward these complex sites. What reassurances has my right hon. Friend received from his colleagues in the Department for Education and Skills that efforts are being made now to develop such skills, particularly across the engineering disciplines which will be vital?

Alistair Darling: I agree with my hon. Friend. Right across the whole energy sector, there is a continuing need to make sure that we have people with the necessary skills and expertise. That does not apply just to nuclear. It applies to the oil and gas industry, for example, and to renewables—where, incidentally, we have an opportunity to show a lead, particularly in the development of wave and marine generation, which is underdeveloped so far. My hon. Friend is right: it is important that we build and maintain our expertise in that regard.

Adrian Bailey: Does my right hon. Friend accept that there have been complaints from British manufacturing industry that it is the victim of an energy supply market, particularly in Europe, whose failure to liberalise has been a factor in increased prices in the UK? Does he agree that in order to reduce the vulnerability of British manufacturing industry, it is essential to have a varied range of sources of future energy supply, including nuclear energy?

Alistair Darling: I agree with my hon. Friend. We face two big challenges: first, we need to tackle climate change; secondly, we need to address the issue of security of supply. As the House knows, the supply of gas into this country was very tight last winter, and this winter will be difficult, too. Yesterday, I met representatives from the generating industry, the regulators and, importantly, consumers of electricity. We must ensure that we have adequate infrastructure to get the right amount of gas into this country.
	My hon. Friend is right about Europe. People talk about the need to have a liberalised energy market in Europe, but there are far too many member states where that is simply not happening. We fully support the Commission's efforts to make sure that that market works.

Jim Devine: My right hon. Friend will be aware that coal will make a major contribution to the energy review. In my constituency, it is estimated that some 500 million tonnes of coal have still not been mined, and my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor) has told me that more than 700 million tonnes of coal have still not been mined in his county. Does my right hon. Friend agree that clean coal can make a major contribution and that we should tap into that resource as part of the review?

Alistair Darling: My hon. Friend has made a good point. Coal is an important part of the generating mix. Scottish Power owns the Longannet power station, which is in sight of his constituency, and earlier this year it announced plans to install equipment to burn cleaner coal, and it is co-firing biomass there, too. We want to encourage developments and technologies such as carbon capture, which will be important not only in this country, but across the world.

Edward Davey: The Secretary of State's Department has been looking at the economics of energy in detail for some time. Will the right hon. Gentleman name any British nuclear power station that has been built on time, on budget and without any taxpayer or consumer subsidy? If he cannot do so, perhaps he will name such a nuclear power station somewhere in the world at any time, ever.

Alistair Darling: The hon. Gentleman has made a good point—although I do not think that he intended to make it—about the time that it takes to build any sort of power station, let alone a nuclear power station, which is partly due to planning difficulties. I commend what the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable), who is sitting behind him, said earlier this year:
	"Dogma about new nuclear power is unhelpful, for and against."
	He should reflect on those words when he responds to my proposals in due course.

Rob Marris: Any company could today apply to build a new nuclear power station. Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the Government will not offer any subsidies whatsoever for the construction or operation of new nuclear power stations either directly in cash or indirectly through subsidies for waste disposal, guaranteed prices, guaranteed purchases, insurance liability cover and so forth?

Alistair Darling: I can see that my hon. Friend is anxious to get more nuclear plant built at the earliest possible opportunity. We will set out our position when I publish the conclusions of the energy review. In the meantime, we have made it clear that it is for the private sector to come forward with proposals in relation to any generating capacity, and we expect it to meet the cost.

Richard Bacon: DTI officials recently confirmed to the Public Accounts Committee that the DTI has ignored the Treasury's green book in calculating nuclear decommissioning costs. Why?

Alistair Darling: I dare say that officials in my Department say many things. I am not aware of exactly what was said, but I shall check and then write to the hon. Gentleman.

Nigel Evans: Earlier, the Secretary of State said that there is an urgent need to take action to save the planet, and we clearly agree with him. When we asked about the time scale, however, he said that he would "announce it shortly". What is the big secret about announcing the timetable for the review? The Prime Minister has given the lead, and we know what he thinks about nuclear power. Is it not time for the Secretary of State to tell us when the statement on the energy review will be made?

Alistair Darling: That sounds to me like a lot of hot air. We will make the announcement very shortly.

Charles Hendry: It is now three months since the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management said that Britain needed to find a long-term solution to the disposal of nuclear waste. Does the Secretary of State accept that regardless of whether new nuclear power stations are being built, we cannot go on drifting without that issue being addressed? What assessment has he made of the approaches being taken in other countries, particularly in Scandinavia, that are developing deep burial facilities and where, crucially, the open approach that they have taken means that they have managed to carry public opinion with them?

Alistair Darling: The hon. Gentleman is right that for many years, under successive Governments, there has been much debate on what we should do with this waste, which is with us regardless of what we do in terms of any new generation of nuclear power. CoRWM published its interim findings in April, and I understand that it will publish its final conclusions this month. It suggested a course of action in its interim statement, and I will respond to that when I deal with the energy review as a whole.

Bank of Credit and Commerce International

Keith Vaz: If he will meet the liquidators of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International to discuss progress of the liquidation.

Margaret Hodge: My hon. Friend the Minister for Consumer Affairs and Competition Policy will be pleased to meet the liquidators of BCCI.

Keith Vaz: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. I remind her that on 21 June, the Governor of the Bank of England said at Mansion house that he felt that our legal system was incapable of resolving financial disputes such as BCCI in a timely and cost-effective way. The Minister is aware that the last litigation lasted 256 days and that the liquidation has taken 15 years to complete. I am glad that the Minister will be meeting me. Let us hope that, with ministerial action, this very long liquidation—the largest insolvency in history—will be brought to a speedy conclusion.

Margaret Hodge: First, I congratulate my hon. Friend on his appointment to the Privy Council. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] Having looked at the history of this in preparing to answer his question, I completely understand that it has taken an inordinately long time to settle. When I looked at the judgment in the recent case of the Bank of England  v. BCCI, I could detect no suggestion from the judge that the liquidators had acted other than in good faith on the basis of the professional advice available to them. Indeed, the judge's anger seems to have been directed rather more at the legal profession than at the liquidators.

Electric Power Distribution

Andrew Robathan: What assessment he has made of the merits of a decentralised energy system for the distribution and delivery of electric power.

Malcolm Wicks: The DTI and the regulator, Ofgem, now lead an industry group known as the electricity networks strategy group, which looks at our networks as a whole to ensure that they do not present any barriers to the meeting of Government energy goals. That applies not only to the national grid system, but to local generation.

Andrew Robathan: I am glad to hear that. The Minister may know that I have a longstanding interest in renewable energy; indeed, I have a photovoltaic roof partly paid for by the DTI PV scheme. I should declare that interest. As he knows, decentralised energy can contribute to the efficiency of renewables. Will he therefore consider, following the investigation, extending Ofgem's remit to provide for decentralised network generation?

Malcolm Wicks: This is a bit like waiting for Godot, although, for me, rather more interesting. We have to wait for the publication of the review on those aspects. However, I take the hon. Gentleman's point about having more decentralised energy. I am pleased that his roof has photovoltaics. I hope that he voted for the money that allowed that to happen; we will check the record on that. A number of challenges are involved in providing more decentralised energy, not least in terms of planning and regulation.

Mr. Speaker: I call question 9— [Interruption.] I am sorry, I call question 7.

UK Energy Mix

David Ruffley: If he will make a statement on the UK energy mix. I am rarely left out, Mr. Speaker. In 2004— [Interruption.]

Alistair Darling: If I recall correctly, the tradition is that the question is answered first. In fact, my answer to questions 7 and 9 is broadly similar.
	We have a well-balanced and diverse electricity-generating capacity at the moment. We need to keep that in the future.

David Ruffley: That is pretty much what I expected. In 2004, 3.5 per cent. of our electricity came from renewables compared with a European Union average of 39 per cent. for the same year. In what year does the Secretary of State expect the UK to hit the EU average?

Alistair Darling: Again, we will make our proposals when we publish the energy review. Although the amount of energy from renewable sources is not as high as we would like it to be, it has steadily increased because of the renewables obligation that we introduced in 2002. If there is to be a step change, there must be a change in the planning laws because far too many applications are currently bottled up in the planning system. Until that is sorted out, there will continue to be less use of renewables than we would like.

Peter Luff: The Secretary of State gave an entirely adequate answer on the subject of legacy waste, which CoRWM is examining. However, if nuclear energy is to play a part in the future energy mix of our country, the new waste that is generated will also need to be treated, stored and disposed of appropriately. What work has been done by anybody—CoRWM has not done much—to establish how the new type of waste, which is smaller in volume but higher in radioactivity, will be disposed of?

Alistair Darling: The hon. Gentleman is right that CoRWM's work has been directed at current waste, although much of that can apply to the waste that we may have to tackle in future. It is likely that a new generation of nuclear plant would be more efficient and therefore produce less waste, but the hon. Gentleman is right—essentially, we are dealing with the same problem. That is why much of the work that has been done in the past will be useful in future.

Dennis Skinner: Does the Secretary of State agree that no energy review would be realistic without taking note of the massive amount of coal—not as great as it used to be—that is still used in Britain? Not many pits are left. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is necessary to keep them open? Is not it important to make sure that we use the coal from this country instead of relying on coal from other countries, which may not be stable in future? Will he therefore give a guarantee to the more than 50,000 people who will meet at the Durham miners' rally on Saturday that coal will play a major part and that we will dig more British coal as a result of the energy review?

Alistair Darling: Yes, coal is an important contributor, which helped us substantially last winter when there was pressure on gas supplies. The Government have given a substantial amount of money to the coal industry in this country over the past few years and I hope that British coal will continue to play a major role in electricity generation. Of course, as the Government have always made clear, it is up to the generators and producers of coal to reach the appropriate agreement on how much coal is provided. However, the Government have made money available in the past and they will continue to do so.

Laurence Robertson: Does the Secretary of State agree that combined heat and power units could play a far greater role in the energy mix? They are more efficient and produce less waste. However, I know of several plants that have been built but not used. Is there a reason for that? Can the Government do anything about it?

Alistair Darling: Yes, we could do better on combined heat and power, but there are several problems, and I will set them out as well as ways in which we might tackle them. Some relate to getting on to the grid and there have also been other difficulties. Other countries have made a success of combined heat and power and, although it has its limitations, we can do a bit more than we have done in the past.

Danny Alexander: In answer to an earlier question, the Secretary of State made the good point that we have enormous potential to exploit wave and tidal power. He knows that the highlands and islands have enormous potential in that context. One of the problems that companies that develop those technologies face is getting them into a commercially viable state. Can the Government do more to provide support for companies that are developing wave and tidal power technologies so that they can get those products to market faster and ensure that the highlands and islands can take a lead in that sector, and that a large share of our electricity is generated from those sources sooner rather than later?

Alistair Darling: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I would like to see more energy generated from marine and tidal power. As he knows, these methods have had a somewhat chequered past, and there have been many false starts. However, the Government have supported them with financial help. I mentioned the planning problems earlier. I would like to see more wind and marine generation of energy, but if we are going to achieve that, we must also provide the transmission lines to get the energy from where it is generated to where it is consumed, whether that is in the central belt of Scotland or in England. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that it is sometimes very difficult to convince people that if we are going to generate electricity in the north of Scotland, we will also need the power lines. If people continue to object to all these things, none of it will happen.

Energy Review

Anne McIntosh: When he expects to complete his energy review; and if he will make a statement.

Alistair Darling: It says here that the Government will publish their proposals shortly.

Anne McIntosh: I thank the Secretary of State for that full and comprehensive reply. As part of the review, will he tell the House what consideration he has given to the role that green crops such as sugar beet could play in producing biomass, and particularly biofuel? Until recently, the Drax power station, in the constituency of Selby, was taking green crops from the Vale of York to co-fire, but it has now stopped doing so. I am sure that the Secretary of State will realise that this is becoming a matter of some urgency, as the sugar beet factory at York is scheduled to close next year, and we are looking for alternative means of creating energy from these crops.

Alistair Darling: The hon. Lady makes a good point. There is some potential in that regard. She mentioned biofuels, and she will be aware that I announced last November that we would impose an obligation that 5 per cent. of fuels had to be biofuels. The impact on carbon of that measure will be the equivalent of taking 1 million cars off the road every year. These matters are under consideration, and I will have more to say about them shortly.

Mark Pritchard: What discussions will the Department be having with British Sugar to determine how sugar beet can be used for biofuels? Is the Secretary of State aware that its Allscott factory in my constituency is to close in April 2007, with the result that 650 Shropshire farmers will no longer have a market for this important cash crop? In addition, 120 people working at the factory will lose their jobs. Is it not time for British Sugar to start working with the Government to create co-operatives with farmers to deliver biofuels using sugar beet, rather than just talking about it?

Alistair Darling: I am not in a position to tell the House what discussions have taken place, but, as I said to the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) a moment ago, sugar beet is an important resource. I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is particularly interested in this matter, because of its agricultural and environmental significance. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that this is something that we need to look at in respect of energy and, crucially, of biofuels.

Kitty Ussher: Does the Secretary of State agree that it would be easier to meet our carbon targets if we moved to the so-called distributed model of electricity generation, in which power is generated on a more local level and sold back into the grid when surpluses are generated? What proportion of our energy demand does he think could be produced in this way?

Alistair Darling: I am hoping that there will be a large attendance in the House when I make my announcement, because I shall be able to answer all these questions more fully at that stage. My hon. Friend is right: we could do rather more with distributed energy than we have done in the past. I would sound a note of caution, however. Some people say that all our electricity could be generated in this way, but I do not think that that is the case. We could do more with distributed energy, but we will still need a grid and large-scale energy production as well.

Michael Weir: The Secretary of State said that the energy review would be published shortly. He will also be aware that one of the main concerns of the renewable generators in Scotland is the question of transmission charges. They are the subject not of the energy review but of a separate review recently announced by Ofgem. Ofgem has made some concessions by changing the need to produce financial guarantees up front, but it has said nothing so far about the actual cost of the transmission charges. After the publication of the energy review, will the Secretary of State ask Ofgem to look closely at the whole question of transmission charges, and at the impact that they will have on renewable generation in Scotland?

Alistair Darling: Yes, I will keep a close eye on that. The hon. Gentleman will recall that we had exchanges about the matter when I was Secretary of State for Scotland. I made it clear then that I am concerned about the impact of the regime. The fact is that most renewables are more likely to be sited in Scotland—probably in the north of Scotland—which means that the right transmission regime must be in place. As I said to the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander) earlier, that also means that those of us in politics who say that we believe in more offshore, onshore or marine generation must back that up with a willingness to have the means of transmitting that power to where it is needed.

Telecommunications Services

John Robertson: What progress is being made in tackling the mis-selling of telecommunications services.

Margaret Hodge: This is a matter for the Office of Communications. Ofcom's view is that, while overall competition has produced significant benefits in the form of lower prices and better services, the problem of mis-selling in telecoms continues. It affects a significant minority of customers, and Ofcom has therefore put in place clear rules to protect consumers and is taking decisive action to enforce those rules.
	To give one example, I can confirm that Ofcom last week fined one company, Just Telecoms UK Ltd., trading as "Lo-Rate", the maximum amount—10 per cent. of its annual turnover—for mis-selling. That is part of Ofcom's ongoing enforcement programme to address this issue and to enforce tougher rules introduced last year. Ofcom is actively investigating a number of further cases.

John Robertson: I thank my right hon. Friend for her extensive answer. However, British companies operating from this country and abroad are contacting customers through third parties, usually from call centres in India. Those companies are mis-selling for other companies, but they imply that they represent the customer's original company. What is she doing to try to stop that? Are those British companies, even though they are using a third party, still liable under British law?

Margaret Hodge: The practice to which my hon. Friend refers sounds pretty disreputable, and I would be happy to meet him to discuss it further, to see whether, working with Ofcom, we can take further action. If he agrees, I shall arrange a meeting as soon as possible.

World Trade Negotiations

Desmond Swayne: What recent representations he has made to his EU counterparts on the world trade negotiations.

Ian McCartney: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry was in Geneva last week to emphasise our commitment to the Doha development agenda in meetings with the EU Trade Commissioner, Mr. Mandelson, and counterparts in other EU member states— [Interruption.] I knew that that would wake them up.

John Bercow: Say it without spitting.

Ian McCartney: With or without water, I am better than the hon. Gentleman.
	My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I continue to discuss the Doha development agenda with Trade Ministers of other World Trade Organisation member countries. In the past few weeks, between us, we have spoken to, among others, the Trade Ministers of the United States, China, Brazil, Finland, Sri Lanka, Botswana, South Africa and India, and the Deputy Foreign Secretary of Morocco. Other members of the Government have also been in contact with their opposite numbers. We also remain in regular contact with business and civil society.

Desmond Swayne: The Minister will understand the paradox that we starve the poor by refusing to buy their food from them. Agricultural goods would not have been brought into the World Trade Organisation, however, had it not been for the success of Leon Brittan in outmanoeuvring the French during the Uruguay round. Unfortunately, Commissioner Mandelson has not been as successful. If the talks collapse, what is the Minister's plan B in relation to the agenda of making poverty history? Did he see the remarks by—

Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is doing quite well as it is.

Ian McCartney: That is another typical Conservative approach. In government, the Conservatives cut support to the world's poorest countries by 50 per cent.; this Government have increased it by 140 per cent. Until recently, the Conservatives had never supported our objectives for the Doha negotiations. Those objectives include more trade opportunities and fewer unfair subsidies, from Europe, in agriculture, and from the United States. We want to see no strings, which means no quotas or duties on exports from the least developed countries to developed and richer developing countries. We want to see significant support for the poorest countries to help them to take advantage of increased trade by building capacity. We lead the world in that investment, and in liberalisation on those countries' terms. That means that any liberation of developing markets must be consistent with their capacity to adapt development programmes.
	We are leading the debate, and I am certain that our discussions over the next couple of weeks will move us to a point at which we can secure an agreement. An ambitious pro-development deal will lift millions out of poverty, and the Government are leading the drive towards it.

John Bercow: Given that the European Union currently spends €64,000 million each year in trade-distorting domestic support for agricultural production—the effect of which is dramatically to exacerbate the plight of the poorest and most destitute people on the planet—does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is essential for that support to be discontinued as soon as possible, so that the poorest people in the world can be given a decent opportunity to compete, to grow and to fend effectively for themselves?

Ian McCartney: The Government have been at the forefront of reform of the common agricultural policy and United States subsidies. The difference between our party and the hon. Gentleman and his party is that we can influence the outcome. At a time when we need more influence in Europe, the hon. Gentleman's party is turning to the extreme right and rejecting the mainstream in Europe.

Vincent Cable: Why did the British Government agree to the withdrawal of approximately 200 so-called sensitive agricultural items from the European Commission's negotiating offer? Did that not constitute a disastrous weakness and oversight?

Ian McCartney: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind me saying so, he and his party—

Edward Davey: Answer the question.

Ian McCartney: I will answer the question. As my favourite poet would say, "Haud yer wheesht".  [Laughter.] If the hon. Gentleman wants to know who that is, it is Rab C. Nesbitt.  [Laughter.] That was a joke.
	The Government are at the forefront of delicate discussions and negotiations to secure a package that is compatible with reducing agricultural tariffs, linked with appropriate access for the G20 countries to services and productive goods without agricultural tariffs. If we can secure that agreement, it will constitute a significant step forward for the world's poorest countries. I assure the House that everything we are doing is aimed at achieving that delicate balance, and we will succeed.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: Despite the Minister's protestations about politics, is it not a fact that European Union protectionism is one of the major barriers to a successful conclusion of the World Trade Organisation talks—whether it takes the form of unwanted agricultural subsidies or Peter Mandelson's shoe-dumping tax, which is costing some of the poorest people in the country £20 a year? Would it not be a disaster if the talks failed? It would be a disaster for some of the poorest countries in the world. What further representations can the Minister make to his friend, Trade Commissioner Mandelson, to ensure that the EU pulls its weight in the talks?

Ian McCartney: Every single country must make a move, and every single trade bloc must make a move. That is precisely what we have been doing in our discussions. This Government sit at the negotiating table, unlike the last Conservative Government, who left the negotiating table and did not participate in an effective way.
	I am glad that the hon. Gentleman's party has now recognised the need to achieve a successful round of talks, but it has done so 10 years too late. This Government are taking action with our colleagues in Europe. I hope that during our discussions over the next fortnight we can get that delicate balance right, and secure a successful agreement to help the world's poorest countries.

Renewable Energy

James Duddridge: What steps his Department is taking to promote renewable energy.

Malcolm Wicks: The Opposition's commitment to the environment and recycling has influenced their questions. This question is a repeat of Question 1. It shows a good environmental approach. I think that the honest thing for me to do is to refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave earlier.

James Duddridge: I am glad that the Minister did not recycle his earlier answer as I recycled the earlier question. Will he now tell me how Government policy on incentives to increase smart metering will assist the use of renewables in homes?

Malcolm Wicks: As we made clear in an earlier discussion, we need to find ways to assist individuals who watch the climate change news and research on the television, who look at what is happening at the Arctic caps and who wonder what they can do about it. Many such people are relatively passive at the moment, but they want to play a role. As well as fostering Government and industrial action, we need to turn the concerned citizen into an active citizen on behalf of the environment. What does that mean in practical terms? It means thermal and loft insulation, better understanding of energy use in the home, microgeneration and, indeed, smart metering. We are interested in that development.

MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITY

The Minister for Women and Equality was asked—

Medical Professions

Anne McIntosh: What steps the Government are taking to increase the representation of women in senior positions in the medical professions; and if she will make a statement.

Ruth Kelly: There are more women working in the medical work force and in undergraduate medicine than ever before. The proportion of female consultants has increased steadily to 26 per cent. from 19 per cent. in 1995. We have a range of schemes in place to encourage women to enter and progress in medicine, including the flexible career scheme.

Anne McIntosh: I thank the right hon. Lady for that reply. I am sure that she shares my pleasure at seeing so many undergraduates coming in, particularly at the Hull York medical school, where a huge proportion—more than 50 per cent.—are women. However, does she share my concern that both in hospital medicine and general practice, many women are choosing to go part- time for the very good reason of wanting to bring up a good family? That effectively means that we almost have to train two lady doctors for each position. The implications for senior positions in hospital medicine are alarming, particularly when the Government have removed the post of senior house officer. What does the Minister see as the way forward in encouraging more women to remain in full-time positions in order to gain the necessary experience to become senior hospital practitioners?

Ruth Kelly: The hon. Lady makes an interesting point, but I remind her not only that the numbers of young women training in medical schools are increasing, but that the representation of women in senior positions has steadily improved at all levels and in practically all specialties over the last 10 years. I believe, as do the Government, that it is important to offer real choice to men and women to balance their work and family life. If we can facilitate flexible working, we should do so, and the same applies to flexible training. A year ago, the junior medical committee of the British Medical Association reached an agreement with the Government and other relevant parties on the introduction of a flexible training scheme that would allow the accreditation of flexible training. I believe that that is the right way forward rather than somehow artificially encouraging people to work full time when they would otherwise choose not to do so.

Chris Bryant: My grandmother was a GP in the Gorbals from the 1940s through to the 1960s—quite early on in respect of women practitioners in this country. There were not too many women GPs then and there are many more now, as my right hon. Friend said. Many women want a greater degree of flexibility in their career than the GP system allows for. Sometimes they are helped through the system by having more salaried GPs. Would my right hon. Friend talk further with her colleagues in Wales about the possibility of developing more salaried GP positions that would be available to women?

Ruth Kelly: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point and I will certainly take up his suggestion of having further discussions with colleagues in Wales. It is important to offer flexible careers both in hospital medicine and for GPs. The flexible career initiative was first introduced for hospital medicine, but has since been extended to GPs, who are beginning to find it easier to combine work as a GP with different family responsibilities. That particularly helps women.

Philip Davies: Will the Minister promise the House that in her desire to see more women in senior positions in the medical profession, she will not go down the politically correct route of having quotas, targets and positive discrimination? Will she always hold to the fact that jobs should be given on merit, irrespective of people's gender?

Ruth Kelly: Of course jobs should be given on merit, but if the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the majority of female undergraduates who are currently training in medical school should not have the opportunity to have their careers progress at the same rate as men's, I believe that he is mistaken.

Domestic Abuse

Si�n James: What progress is being made in supporting women who report domestic abuse.

Ruth Kelly: The national domestic violence delivery report outlines a series of initiatives, including the specialist domestic violence court programme, and training packages for independent domestic violence advisers and prosecutors and the police. We also part-fund the national 24-hour freephone helpline to provide information, support and advice.

Si�n James: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Unfortunately, in Swansea in 2005-06 there were 3,266 reported incidents of domestic abuse. She may be aware that the city has been invited to express an interest in having a domestic violence court, and I and a number of local agencies support that proposal. Despite that, will she continue to ensure that women who suffer domestic abuse get the assistance, guidance and support that they need and deserve?

Ruth Kelly: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. She makes the very important point that victims of domestic violence are being properly supported, and she will no doubt be pleased to know that Swansea magistrates court was one of several in Wales visited this week by the national domestic violence group, which is considering its suitability for selection as a specialist court. I wish her well when the successful bids are announced later this year. I am also aware that Swansea police have been recognised for the great deal of innovative work that they do to support victims of domestic abuse. For example, they are targeting perpetrators through the spotlight on suspects campaign. That work, together with the Welsh Assembly's efforts, is making a real difference to victims of domestic abuse, and it is important that it continues.

Angela Watkinson: In my excellent local women's refuge, which I happen to be visiting tomorrow, there are women who are fleeing domestic violence, often with young children. What can the Minister do, through discussions with her Cabinet colleagues, to ensure that the perpetrator of such violence is removed from the family home, rather than the mother and children?

Ruth Kelly: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight that issue, which we are dealing with through our legislative proposals. But it is also important, as I am sure that she will agree, that we invest in domestic refuges, so that those women who want to leave immediately are able to do so. That is why we have invested more than 30 million over three years in new refuge provision, and in the refurbishment of refuges created through existing schemes.

Fiona Mactaggart: While I welcome the substantial efforts that have been made to protect the victims of domestic violenceadvisers, specialist courts and so onI am concerned that we are not doing enough to prevent such tragedies, which lead to the deaths of two women every week. Does the Minister have any ideas that she can discuss with colleagues, such as working with young people, potential perpetrators and women who might be victims to reduce the likely future incidence of domestic violence, rather than merely helping victims after such incidents have occurred?

Ruth Kelly: My hon. Friend makes a very important point, and I know that the Minister for Women and Equality has been working with colleagues across Government Departmentsincluding in the Department for Education and Skills, for exampleto look specifically at the needs of young people and how we can improve education about, and understanding of, these very important issues. It is right that we not only focus on the victims of domestic abuseimportant as that isbut that we try at the early stages to prevent domestic abuse from happening in the first place.

Women in Public Life

Jo Swinson: What assessment she has made of the level of representation of women in public life; and if she will make a statement.

Meg Munn: Women are well represented at local level, holding 43 per cent. of appointments to NHS trusts, 49.4 per cent. of magistrates' appointments and 54 per cent. of school governors' appointments. Women currently hold 35 per cent. of public appointments overallan increase from the figure of 32 per cent. in 1997. I look forward to working with Janet Gaymer, the new commissioner for public appointments, to make further progress on this issue.

Jo Swinson: In this, the week of the Local Government Association conference, does the Minister share my concern at the fact that just 27 per cent. of Conservative councillors, 29 per cent. of Labour councillors and 32 per cent. of Liberal Democrat councillors in the UK are women, with far fewer in some areas, such as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? If so, what steps is she takingand what steps would she encourage others to taketo address this imbalance and to encourage more women into local government?

Meg Munn: The hon. Lady will be aware that we introduced the Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2002 to allow political parties to make their own arrangements to encourage more women to stand in local and national elections. Our focus is on all-women shortlists, which we are using in some local elections, and I would be delighted if other parties joined us in that regard. I know that the hon. Lady's party is struggling to get such a proposal through, and that the Leader of the Opposition is also struggling. In fact, the number of women selected since the introduction of his A-list has gone down, not up.

Lynda Waltho: Last year's intake of new Labour MPs was historic in that, for the first time, it included more women than men. Most of those women were selected from all-women shortlists. Unfortunately, our sisters in Opposition parties have not fared quite so well[Hon. Members: Sisters?] Yes, sisters. What policy does my hon. Friend think would be most helpful in encouraging more women to come forward for election to this place? Would it be all-women shortlists or the employment of bikini-clad women to serve drinks at a 400-a-head summer ball?

Meg Munn: The evidence is clear: it is only the Labour party that is making real strides on this issue. We are doing that through all-women shortlists [ Interruption. ] I know that the Opposition are not very happy about that, but they are all talk and no action.

Eleanor Laing: The Minister and the Liberal Democrats really must not worry about those of us on the Conservative Benches because in a very short time we will fill the Government side with many Conservative women [ Interruption. ] That seems to have produced a reaction.
	What guidelines have the Government laid down for the contracts of employment of women in public positions to allow flexible working conditions for high-achieving women, so that those at the very top of their professions, whatever they might be, will have the opportunity to work flexibly and therefore to fulfil their family and caring duties, as well as having the chance to break through the glass ceiling?

Christopher Fraser: Come on, sister!

Meg Munn: My tennis partner calls me sister. The hon. Lady talks a good talk, but she promised before the last election that there would be many more Conservative women MPs. That did not happen because they did not get selected in safe seats. As I said, the proportion being selected for safe seats has fallen since the introduction of the A-list. I am pleased to tell the hon. Lady that the proportion of women in the more senior grades in the civil service has continued to increase. On 4 April 2007, it had increased to 34.8 per cent. from 32.7 per cent. Individual Departments are introducing work-life balance champions who can ensure that staff have the opportunity to work flexibly up to the highest levels. We certainly want to see that happen in more Departments.

Lorely Burt: Does the Minister agree that child care facilities are key for any women who wish to put themselves forward for all aspects of public life and work generally? What message are we sending to women when, in the 21st century, the Westminster estate still lacks a crche and other appropriate child care facilities for hon. Members and our staff?

Meg Munn: The hon. Lady will know that the Government have given a high priority to child care and have invested in much more provision. It is a matter for discussion whether child care provision is most appropriate at a person's place of work or near their home. That is a real issue for both women and men. I do not oppose considering the issue that the hon. Lady raises and that is something for the House authorities to do, as much for the employees here who have to work the same unsocial hours as we do, as for the Members of Parliament.

Business of the House

Theresa May: Will the Deputy Leader of the House please give us the business for the coming weeks?

Nigel Griffiths: My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has given notice of a previous commitment that keeps him from the House today. In his absence, I should like to announce the business for the coming weeks, as follows:
	Monday 10 JulyA debate on the BBC on a Government motion.
	Tuesday 11 JulyA debate on the Intelligence and Security Committee annual report 2005-06 on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
	Wednesday 12 JulyOpposition Day [18th Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on home information packs, followed by a debate on progress towards the millennium development goals. Both debates will arise on an Opposition motion.
	Thursday 13 JulyRemaining stages of the NHS Redress Bill [ Lords] .
	Friday 14 JulyPrivate Members' Bills.
	The provisional business for the following week will be:
	Monday 17 JulyRemaining stages of the Compensation Bill [ Lords].
	Tuesday 18 JulyConsideration of Lords amendments to the Health Bill, followed by consideration of Lords amendments to the Government of Wales Bill, followed by motion to take note of the outstanding reports of the Public Accounts Committee to which the Government have replied. Details will be given in the  Official Report.
	Wednesday 19 JulyOpposition Day [19th Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion in the name of the Liberal Democrats. Subject to be announced.
	Thursday 20 JulyRemaining stages of the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill [ Lords], followed by a debate on international development on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
	Friday 21 JulyThe House will not be sitting.
	I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 20 July will be:
	Thursday 20 JulyA debate on boundaries, voting and representation in Scotland.
	 The information regarding business on Tuesday 18 July is as follows:
	The following reports fall within the scope of the motion
	
		
			  2005-06 
			 Fourth Report Fraud and error in benefit expenditure HC 411  (Cm 6728) 
			 Seventh Report The use of operating theatres in the Northern Ireland Health and Personal Social Services HC 414  (Cm 6699) 
			 Eighth Report Navan Centre HC 415  (Cm 6699) 
			 Ninth Report Foot and Mouth Disease: applying the lessons HC 563  (Cm 6728) 
			 Twelfth Report Helping those in financial hardship: the running of the Social Fund HC 601  (Cm 6728) 
			 Thirteenth Report The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister: Tackling homelessness HC 653  (Cm 6743) 
			 Fourteenth Report Energywatch and Postwatch HC 654  (Cm 6743) 
			 Fifteenth Report HM Customs and Excise Standard Report 200304 HC 695  (Cm 6743) 
			 Sixteenth Report Home Office: Reducing vehicle crime HC 696  (Cm 6743) 
			 Seventeenth Report Achieving value for money in the delivery of public services HC 742  (Cm 6743) 
			 Eighteenth Report Department for Education and Skills: Improving school attendance in England HC 789  (Cm 6766) 
			 Nineteenth Report Department of Health: Tackling cancer: improving the patient journey HC 790  (Cm 6766) 
			 Twentieth Report The NHS Cancer Plan: a progress report HC 791  (Cm 6766) 
			 Twenty-first Report Skills for Life: Improving adult literacy and numeracy HC 792  (Cm 6766) 
			 Twenty-second Report Maintaining and improving Britain's railway stations HC 535  (Cm 6775) 
			 Twenty-third Report Filing of income tax self assessment returns HC 681  (Cm 6775) 
			 Twenty-fourth Report The BBC's White City 2 development HC 652  (Second Special Report, HC 1139, 2005-06) 
			 Twenty-fifth Report Securing strategic leadership in the learning and skills sector HC 602  (Cm 6775) 
			 Twenty-sixth Report Assessing and reporting military readiness HC 667  (Cm 6775) 
			 Twenty-seventh Report Lost in translation? Responding to the challenges of European law HC 590  (Cm 6775) 
			 Twenty-eighth Report Extending access to learning through technology: Ufi and the learndirect service HC 706  (Cm 6775) 
			 Twenty-ninth Report Excess Votes 200405 HC 916  (N/A) 
			 Thirtieth Report Excess Votes (Northern Ireland) 200405 HC 917  (N/A) 
			 Thirty-first Report Northern Ireland's Waste Management Strategy HC 741  (Cm 6843) 
			 Thirty-second Report Working with the voluntary sector HC 717  (Cm 6789) 
			 Thirty-third Report The Royal Parks and the Diana, Princess of Wales Memorial Fountain HC 644  (Cm 6789) 
			 Thirty-fourth Report Returning failed asylum applicants HC 620  (Cm 6863) 
			 Thirty-fifth Report The refinancing of the Norfolk and Norwich PFI Hospital HC 694  (Cm ????) 
			 Thirty-sixth Report Tackling the complexity of the benefits system HC 765  (Cm 6863) 
			 Thirty-seventh Report Inland Revenue Standard Report: New Tax Credits HC 782  (Cm 6863) 
			 Thirty-eighth Report Channel Tunnel Rail Link HC 727  (Cm 6863) 
			 Thirty-ninth Report Consular services to British nationals HC 813  (Cm 6863) 
			 Fortieth Report Environment Agency: Efficiency in water resource management HC 749  (Cm ????) 
			 Forty-first Report The South Eastern Passenger Rail Franchise HC 770  (Cm ????) 
			 Forty-second Report Enforcing competition in markets HC 841  (Cm ????) 
		
	
	The reference number of the Treasury minute to each report is printed in brackets after the HC printing number.

Theresa May: I thank the Deputy Leader of the House for giving us the business for the coming fortnight.
	At business questions last week, I noted that Monday's BBC debate was taking place the day before the BBC's annual report was due to be published. I am pleased that the Leader of the House has acted on that, although he has chosen to change not the date of the debate but the publication date of the BBC's annual report. I understand that that will now come out this Friday, but I am grateful for the action that has been taken.
	I am sure that the Deputy Leader of the House will have noted the vote in Standing Committee this morning that has changed the Company Law Reform Bill into the Companies Bill. Interestingly, the Minister for Industry and the Regions and the Solicitor-General took different sides in the vote. It is good to see that the Government know what they are doing. A more serious point is that there are to be 400 new clauses to the Bill. They have yet to be tabled and the Government have refused to allow the Committee time to consider them. Will the Deputy Leader of the House ensure that there is enough time on Report to discuss those significant changes?
	The forthcoming business made no mention of the Road Safety Bill, which left Committee in April. The need for the Bill is recognised and it has broad cross-party support. Why are the Government dragging their feet when it comes to completing its passage through the House?
	Today, the Select Committee on Education and Skills published its report on special educational needs. It refers to the 2004 SEN strategy Removing Barriers to Achievement, which sets out the Government's vision on SEN. The Select Committee notes that the guidance given to local authorities states unmistakably that
	the proportion of children educated in special schools should fall over time.
	In evidence to the Committee, however, the Education Minister Lord Adonis said that the Government
	have no policy whatever, I should stress, of encouraging local authorities to close special schools.
	The Select Committee goes on to say:
	What is urgently needed is for the Government to clarify its position on SENspecifically on inclusion...It is the view of this Committee that...the SEN system is demonstrably no longer fit for purpose and there is a need for the Government to develop a new system that puts the needs of the child at the centre of provision.
	May we therefore have a statement from the Education Secretary before the recess, clarifying the Government's policy on SEN?
	Yesterday, another British soldier was killed in Afghanistan. I am sure that hon. Members from all parties will join me in sending condolences and sympathy to his family. May we have a statement before 24 Julyfrom the Defence Secretary, and not a junior Ministeron any planned increase in the deployment of troops and/or equipment in Afghanistan?
	Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Health announced funding for community hospitals. She somehow omitted to mention the 81 community hospitals that have closed, or which are threatened by closure or the loss of services. Examples are St. Marks in Maidenhead, which may lose services, and Townlands in Henley, which is under threat of closure. Both those hospitals serve my constituents. She said at  Hansard, column 817, that primary care trusts might want to extend their local investment finance trust schemes, known as LIFT schemes. Did she not know that the Public Accounts Committee said that LIFT projects cost eight times more per patient than the accommodation they replace, and that the higher cost could squeeze out other spending on primary care? May we have a debate on community hospitals?
	By the way, do not the Government realise that it is all very well giving money to build new premises, but the problem for the health service today is finding the money to staff them and to treat patients? The Government get more like a Yes, Minister sketch every day. Talking of which, up to now, Ministers have told us that we should not talk about job cuts in the NHS, yet today the Health Minister, Lord Warner, has written to Members and his opening sentence is:
	I wrote to you in May clarifying the position on job cuts within the National Health Service.
	Perhaps all Ministers could use the same language in future.
	May we have a debate on control of policing? The Government are apparently to set up a national policing board chaired by the Home Secretary. Exactly how do they think policing will be improved by putting it under the control of the Home Officethe very Department that the Home Secretary has said is dysfunctional and not fit for purpose?
	Finally, last week in business questions, the Leader of the House said that we had
	squandered some Opposition days on the most eccentric subjects[ Official Report, 29 June 2006; Vol. 448, c. 390.]
	Since the new Leader of the House took office, we have had Opposition day debates on the BBC, housing and planning policy, tax credits, volunteers and carers and the NHS. Which of those subjects does the right hon. Gentleman consider eccentric? Or is it just that on the health service, the work of carers or problems with tax credits the Government simply do not want to know?

Nigel Griffiths: I thank the right hon. Member for being as predictable as ever.
	The whole House will want to express its condolences to the family of the brave soldier who was tragically killed yesterday in Afghanistan. As the Prime Minister made clear to the House yesterday, commanders on the ground are the judges of their resources. Anything they need and ask for to protect our troops will be given to them.
	The large number of clauses for the Companies Bill results from the fact that it is a consolidating measure, and I thank the Opposition for their general support in respect of that. I am sure that there will be adequate time on Report to cover any outstanding issues. The Bill is important and its time is ripe.
	We are determined to get the Road Safety Bill right. I hope that we can count on the support of all Members of the House for some of the key measures that have been taken, such as speed cameras and speed humps, where appropriate, and other devices, which in my constituency in Edinburgh and the borders have resulted in no child deaths for the past three years. For the first time since records began in 1927, no children have been killed. I shall look with confidence to support from all the Opposition parties for appropriate road safety measures.
	I commend the work of the Select Committee on Education and Skills, which reported today on special educational needs. It is important to reflect that, in recent years, spending on such children has risen by 50 per cent., from just under 3 billion to 4.5 billion. I hope that the right hon. Member and the House will forgive me for saying that it may take a little longer than the two weeks or so available to us for the Government to formulate a considered response to the report, but we shall make an appropriate response and I am sure that there will be ample opportunity for the House to discuss it.
	As the right hon. Member knows, a major review of policing is being undertaken. It is right that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is considering the best way of making police forces more effective and making the input and experience of the police more effective in formulating Government policy. It is also right that we ensure that the best practice of the best police authorities is extended to others.
	The right hon. Member mentioned community hospitals, but she neglected to say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health yesterday announced 750 million as an investment for those community hospitals. The right hon. Member also voiced her concerns about falling hospital numbers, but my right hon. Friend would want me to remind the right hon. Member that, in her strategic health authority, there has been a 22 per cent. increase in the number of nursesup by more than 2,700and there are 1,418 more doctors, a 40 per cent. increase. I am sorry that she is not absorbing those facts.
	As for the Opposition days that the right hon. Member wanted to defend, hon. Members believed that there were more serious issues than back gardens and one or two of the other things that have been chosen for Opposition days. Indeed, I await with interest the many suggestions that will come in the next few minutes from hon. Members for important debates that should be held, and I hope that I will be able to suggest an adequate slot for them.

Bill Olner: Is my hon. Friend aware of the serious concerns in my constituency about the fate of the George Eliot hospital? [Hon. Members: Ah.] No, it is not the Government; they have poured a great deal of money into the health service in my area and we are grateful to them for that. However, the acute services review is suggesting that things should happen at that hospital that will be bad not only for my community, but the communities around us. All the people who have made those suggestions are unelected quango people. May we have a debate to talk about not only how the acute services review affects Nuneaton and other areas, but how those non-elected people can bear down on our constituents?

Nigel Griffiths: I share the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend and, as he rightly said, it is for the primary care trust to take account of local views and strategic needs locally and to take appropriate actions. I hope that the PCT listens to the sort of concerns that he and others are enumerating and that it takes whatever action is appropriate to ensure that the 3,000 more front-line staff available to the strategic health authority are best deployed to ensure that waiting lists are cut further and that the most appropriate treatment is given in the most efficient manner to his constituents.

Paul Burstow: Many of my constituents will be surprised by the hon. Gentleman's disparaging remarks about back garden land, not least because many of them find it hard to understand how the Government have designated back gardens as brownfield sites, thus making them ripe for development.
	The statement contained no reference to the Welfare Reform Bill. Is it still the Government's intention it should have a Second Reading before the summer recess? Given that the Government intend to leave most of its detail to regulations, will the hon. Gentleman ask the Leader of the House to use his good offices to ensure that, if it receives a Second Reading, the regulations are published in draft form before the Bill is debated in Committee?
	May I draw the attention of the Deputy Leader of the House to early-day motion 393, entitled Protecting Runaway Children, which has been signed by 394 hon. Members on both sides of the House?
	 [That this House warmly welcomes the Children's Society's Safe and Sound campaign to make England safe for the 100,000 children who run away from home or care each year; is alarmed at the Society's findings that almost half of all children who have run away for over a week are physically or sexually hurt; calls on all local authorities to put into place the safeguards recommended by the Department of Health to protect young runaways; and further calls on the Government to undertake an early evaluation of the six pilot schemes for flexible community-based accommodation for young runaways across England which have now completed their first year, in order that the lessons can be incorporated in the swift establishment of a national network of safe places for children and young people.]
	May we have some time to debate the issues that that early-day motion covers, to explore what more needs to be done to safeguard the welfare of the 100,000 children who run away each yearin particular, by securing for them long-term funding for a national network of safe shelters for children and young people?
	Given the concern about the lack of give and take in our extradition arrangements with the United States, can time be made for a debate on Second Reading of the Extradition (United States) Bill, which receives its First Reading today and is promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Clegg), so that extradition proceedings require the presentation of prima facie evidence to a judge before a person can be extradited to the US?
	Finally, given the overwhelming decision of the House yesterday to agree to the dates of our summer recess, can the Deputy Leader of the House confirm what arrangements are in place to ensure a rapid recall of the House if events require that to happen?

Nigel Griffiths: The Welfare Reform Bill will be adequately debated and considered. I appreciate the concerns and the expertise that the hon. Member brings to the issue. There are hon. Members on both sides of the House who take a particular interest in welfare reform. It is important that we get the measures right and that we give opportunities to people who feel that they are not only jobless, but excluded from the job market, to enter that market in an appropriate way.
	Protecting runaway children is vital. I am sorry that I cannot promise a debate on that matter here before the recess, but there may be other avenues for it to be debated and for Ministers to respond.
	On extradition, the Prime Minister has made it clear that, as he said yesterday, he wants his officials to investigate the support that is available to the people in the specific case that has been mentioned. However, there are no plans at present to amend our extradition laws and I do not see such changes planned in the foreseeable future.
	The hon. Member also raised the important issue of the recall of Parliament. There are precedents for recalling Parliament, as he will know. Parliament has been recalled several times. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will, of course, liaise with his opposite numbers and Mr. Speaker should such a demand or eventuality occur, and Parliament would be recalled in the normal way.

David Winnick: As we recall again this week the 52 people who were murdered and the many who were seriously injured on 7 July, will my hon. Friend carefully consider a statement to explain why there is so much delay in compensation being giventhe final sumsto those who were most seriously injured? I am talking about those who lost both legs, or arms, or, in the case of one person, both legs and an eye. Is it not totally unacceptable that there should be so much delay, bearing in mind the anguish of the people involved? The last thing that they should be concerned about is having to fill in endless forms to get the compensation that is their right. That has nothing to do with the compensation measure that is to be debated the week after next. I seriously urge Ministers to give this matter top priority.

Nigel Griffiths: I know that everyone will be grateful to my hon. Friend and other hon. Members for highlighting this case. I know that the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Sutcliffe) responded, I hope sympathetically, to my hon. Friend when he raised the matter in an Adjournment debate on 3 July. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary also undertook to write to him setting out how the compensation payments could be made more speedily and reminded the House that, at that stage, 370 awards, totalling 2.3 million had been made, and in 217 cases a final award had been accepted. I appreciate the anguish that is caused by people having to wait for a final settlement, and so does my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, who is addressing the issue seriously.

George Young: The Leader of the House has been charged by the Prime Minister with two sensitive and important tasks: dealing with the roadblocks to House of Lords reform and with party funding. Safe in the knowledge that his boss is not here, will the Deputy Leader of the House give me an assurance that, before the House rises, the Leader of the House will make a statement on the progress that he has made with both tasks?

Nigel Griffiths: I can tell the right hon. Member that my right hon. Friend will be here next week to answer that. There are no plans at present to give such a statement, because talks with the Opposition and other parties have not reached any conclusion and it might be premature to make a statement on party funding at this stage. There will, of course, be ample time to debate and deliberate on this issue when the report from Sir Hayden Phillips is published.
	On the House of Lords, I am pleased to inform the House that my right hon. Friend is making progress in the range of options that are available to the House and hopes at some stage in the not-too-distant future to be able to put proposals before the House. I hope that, unlike the last time such proposals went before the House, we come to a majority view on the future composition of that institution.

Ann Coffey: Will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming the statement by the Secretary of State for Transport today giving an extra 244 million to the Greater Manchester passenger transport executive to enable it to start the construction of the extensions of the Metrolink within the next two years? Will he make time for a debate on other transport issues in Greater Manchester?

Nigel Griffiths: I do welcome that and I know that it will be widely welcomed in Manchester. Although I cannot give an undertaking for a debate, I know that my hon. Friend will want to take the opportunity at Transport questions next Tuesday to thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in person and to press him on the timetable and other issues that concern her.

Alex Salmond: May we have a statement from the Prime Minister to explain his interview in  The Times today calling for the formation of a Great Britain football team? Is it the Prime Minister's wish to have such a team just for the Olympics or does he wish, like previous Labour Ministers, to abolish the Scottish football team altogether? With so much to do and so little time in which to do it, why is the Prime Minister attempting to bully the Scottish Football Association and the Welsh authorities into doing something that they believe would jeopardise their position in international football?

Nigel Griffiths: The hon. Member leads me into the Scottish minefield. He will forgive me if I tread delicately through itsuffice to say that I did enjoy going, at my own expense, to see Scotland play Italy earlier this year, when they acquitted themselves very well. I have no hesitation in saying that I deeply regret England's loss in the World cup. As for whether there should be a United Kingdom football team, or, I suppose, a British Lions teama British Lions team does not in any way threaten the individual states having teams playing rugbythat is a matter for FIFA and for the Scottish federations, too.

Keith Vaz: May we have an emergency debate on the political crisis that is gripping Leicester city council following the decision of the leader of the Conservative group to regard himself as a Liberal Democrat? He told the  Leicester Mercury last night:
	I am to be considered a member of the Liberal Democrat group
	for the purposes of voting. He is also considering himself to be a member of the Conservative group for the purposes of leading that group. At the same time, several Liberal Democrats have now been expelled from the Liberal Democrat group and have formed their own Focus group. May we please have an urgent debate on this important matter so that those issues can be cleared up once and for all?

Nigel Griffiths: I would like to have an urgent debate, but, more importantly, I would like to have an urgent vote. I understand that the electors will be able to vote next year. Doubtless they will look at the chaos in the Liberal Democrat and Conservative groups on that council and choose to vote Labour.

Christopher Fraser: Despite the answer given to my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May), it is essential that we have a debate on the future of community hospitals. I have two in my constituency, in Swaffham and Thetford, and I am extremely concerned about their ability to cope with local needs as the acute hospitals in King's Lynn, Norwich and the eastern region face cutbacks. The Secretary of State for Health has promised that community hospitals will be safeguarded, but there is little evidence that that promise will be fulfilled.

Nigel Griffiths: I regret that I do not believe that there will be Government time for a debate, but I urge the hon. Member to make representations to Opposition Front-Bench Members to see whether one of the subjects that they have chosen for debateperhaps home information packsmight be delayed in order to debate what he rightly considers an important issue.

David Taylor: Four people were killed and 102 were injured in the Hatfield rail disaster. Subsequently, Railtrack was fined the derisory sum of 3.5 million and Balfour Beatty the token amount of 10 million. Is the Deputy Leader of the House as shocked and astonished as I am that the Appeal Court yesterday reduced Balfour Beatty's fine by 25 per cent. on the basis that it pleaded guilty at the court hearing? Does that not show that a privatised rail system elevates profit above the safety of passengers and staff? Will he arrange a debate on the whole debacle, which might also allow us to consider the possibilities of returning the rail system to public ownership and introducing a law whereby company directors could be jailed for encouraging their more junior managers to abandon safety in the pursuit of profit?

Nigel Griffiths: Without commenting on the individual case, may I say that there is concern that there are not appropriate sanctions against the tiny minority of directors who are highly irresponsible? The Government have been considering appropriate legislation, or the appropriate strengthening of existing legislation, to take account of the concerns that my hon. Friend voices.

John Hayes: This morning, I have been struck once again, as no doubt you have, Mr. Speaker, by Members' eloquence. However, communicating is not so straightforward for many people with disabilities such as cerebral palsy. Those afflicted thought that they were finally getting the help that they needed when the Department for Education and Skills launched the communications aid project in 2002 to provide technology and support to more than 4,000 children. However, only this year, the scheme was suddenly dropped, cruelly leaving 500 children on the waiting list. The House deserves a statement that makes clear what steps the Government plan to take to ensure that local health and social care agencies are meeting vulnerable children's communication needs. We must listen and speak for those who cannot.

Nigel Griffiths: I take the hon. Member's comments very seriously. Although I cannot promise a statement, I will make sure that the Secretary of State for Health responds directly to him on that issue. I will ask her to place a copy of the correspondence in the Library.

Jim Devine: Will my hon. Friend set time aside to discuss the situation in North Korea, because the incidents that have occurred this week have caused hon. Members on both sides of the House great concern?

Nigel Griffiths: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point. I am sure that his concerns are widespread throughout the House. The United Nations Security Council met yesterday. The UK supports urgent action and the adoption of a tough resolution that urges the Government of North Korea to refrain from further launches and return to the six-party talks immediately. I hope that the North Korean Government will respond to the UN Security Council and the unanimous condemnation of the actions that they have taken.

Mark Hunter: Now that London has a dedicated policing team of six front-line officers for each local authority ward, will the Deputy Leader of the House find time for a debate on rolling out that excellent scheme to the rest of the country so that residents in Cheadle and elsewhere can enjoy genuine community policing, more bobbies on the beat and the high-visibility policing for which areas such as mine are crying out?

Nigel Griffiths: Obviously, that was a manifesto commitment by the Labour Government, so I am glad that it is being carried out. Additional policing has been provided in some areas without the support of Liberal Democrats, I am sorry to say. I can give the hon. Member chapter and verse on that. It is certainly true that Liberal Democrats in Edinburgh voted against funding 32 extra police officers. Setting aside the party political points, I know that people want to ensure that the 14,000 extra police who have been funded since 1997 are visible in the community and are carrying out work. I will ensure that the Home Secretary is made aware of the hon. Member's comments and question.

Julie Morgan: When may we have a debate on the future use of reservoirs that are allegedly no longer needed for their water supply? In Cardiff, North, Western Power Distribution is planning to concrete over part of the Llanishen reservoir, despite huge public opposition and the fact that a site of special scientific interest has been identified. There is also a successful yachting club on the reservoir. The area has been a beauty spot for many years, but that is being replaced by spiked metal poles and barking Alsatians. When may we have a debate about such changes?

Nigel Griffiths: Obviously, the appropriate body with which to raise that is the Welsh Assembly GovernmentI am sure that my hon. Friend has done that, too. It is important that the amenity of local areas is taken properly and fully into account when reaching such decisions. I will ensure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is made aware of general concerns about the possible loss of the use of reservoirs, which sounds somewhat paradoxical at a time of water shortages.

Peter Lilley: Although the Deputy Leader of the House appears to believe that debating house building is frivolous, may we have a debate on the implications for the house-building targets that are being imposed on our local authorities of the level of net immigration into this country? Ministers have made 17 statements to the House about house building over the years, but they have not discussed or quantified the implications of net immigration for those house-building targets in any of them. In the light of the remarks of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) that we neglect these issues at our peril, should there not be an opportunity for those of us who believe that immigrants are decent, hard-working and loyal members of the community none the less to consider rationally and calmly whether the implications of the current level of immigration for house building in the most densely populated major country in Europe are acceptable?

Nigel Griffiths: I believe that the right hon. Member is wrong. There has been ample opportunity to discuss the subject in previous debates, although the issue was perhaps not such a hot topic then because it was not being linked to immigration. I do not believe that immigration is a major driver behind the need for more housing. The break-up of marriage, the smaller family unit, the fact that people are delaying getting married or forming relationships until their 30s and 40s and the fact that a vast number of people now choose to live singly because they like that lifestyle make a far bigger contribution to demand on housing and the shortage of housing than immigration. I would welcome a debate on the subject.

David Anderson: May I draw my hon. Friend's attention to early-day motion 2145, which is in my name, on labour rights in Iraq?
	 [That this House applauds the recent Labour Friends of Iraq (LFIQ) delegation to Erbil and Sulamaniyah to meet unions, parties, and ministers from Iraqi Kurdistan as well as 22 union leaders from Baghdad, Basra and Babel; is concerned that Iraqi Ministers, through Decree 8750 of August 2005, have frozen the monies of unions including those affiliated to the Iraqi Workers' Federation, leaving organisations which represent up to a million Iraqis and which are the bedrock of a non-sectarian civil society unable to organise and play a positive role in both the workplace and in wider society; fears that some may create sectarian client unions; urges the British Government to make representations to the Iraqi government to lift Decree 8750 and the continuing ban, first introduced in 1987 by Saddam Hussein, on public sector trade union organisation; is concerned that this ban is the basis of hostile actions against the Port Workers' Union in Khour Al-Zubeir; further notes that the LFIQ delegation was told repeatedly by union leaders and others of the potential of private foreign investment in Iraqi Kurdistan, whose Parliament is keen to encourage investment, not least in tourism and mineral extraction; and believes that those concerned for Iraqi democracy should heed the call of the Iraqi unions for urgent assistance to retrieve their independence and to increase their power as a social partner in reconstructing Iraq, which has long been isolated from modern thinking and must contend with the enormous physical and psychological legacy of dictatorship, sanctions and war.]
	May we have a debate about the ongoing injustice in Iraq of the so-called democratic Government continuing to deny rights to trade unions and to hold all trade union assets, in direct contravention of International Labour Organisation conventions?

Nigel Griffiths: The Government have made direct representations on the position of Iraqi trade unions and voiced similar concerns to those expressed by my hon. Friend. I know that he visited Iraq as part of a delegation and met Iraqi trade union leaders. I understand that that has been reciprocated and that they are here todayI hope to meet them later on with him. I hope to be able to assure them that we will continue to make representations on this issue. We firmly believe in the value of trade unions.

Sammy Wilson: Last week, an education order that will have a far greater impact on education in Northern Ireland than the Education and Inspections Bill will have on education in England went through in a Committee Room upstairs after a paltry two-and-a-half hour debate. That caused immense anger in Northern Ireland. The order is opposed by the vast majority of people, and it might not be reversed, even if devolution were returned. Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that there will be an opportunity to debate the order properly in the House? Will he outline what plans he has to ensure that all Northern Ireland legislation is treated in the same way as the rest of UK legislation, rather than being fast-tracked through Orders in Council?

Nigel Griffiths: As the hon. Member knows, we have made detailed plans, and we hope that by 24 November the anger he mentions will be channelled to ensure that the Assembly reconvenes and undertakes that practical work. He objects to that work being undertaken by the Housewith some justification, I am sureso I look forward to his working with us to ensure that that reconvening comes about, and I urge all parties in the process to join us. I am sorry that he thinks that the debate was not adequate, but I shall certainly look at the issue and get back to him.

James McGovern: The Deputy Leader of the House will doubtless be aware that I have raised the issue of Remploy on a number of occasions, as it is very important to many of my constituents who are employed by the Remploy factory in Dundee, and it is emblematic of the general debates about the way in which we should help people with disabilities back into work. Bearing that in mind, will my hon. Friend use his good offices to ensure that when PricewaterhouseCoopers' review of Remploy is published it will be accompanied by an oral ministerial statement so that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have the chance to question the relevant Minister?

Nigel Griffiths: Whether or not it is accompanied by an oral statement, I am sure that there will be a chance to question the Minister. Obviously, there are regular questions on work and pensions. The next such question time is on Monday, but I do not think that PWC will have reported by then. Once the report is available, I am sure that my hon. Friend will find a way to ask questions. If the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions makes an oral statement, my hon. Friend will have an opportunity to do so, but there will be other opportunities, too.

Andrew MacKay: I am sure that the Deputy Leader of the House is aware that my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr. Swire), the shadow Culture, Media and Sport spokesman, has written to the Deputy Prime Minister to ask for the names of three civil servants who recently accompanied him to the ranch in Colorado. In his reply, however, the Deputy Prime Minister omitted the names. I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House believes that that information should be in the public domain, so what will he do next week to ensure that it is placed in the public domain?

Nigel Griffiths: Why should I be aware of such a letter? Did the hon. Member for East Devon (Mr. Swire) copy me in? If not, why not? Ask him.

Jim Sheridan: May we have a debate on irresponsible and dangerous journalism? My hon. Friend will be aware that the BBC was rightly criticised this week for attempting to entrap young Scots, but may I point out, too, that  The Sun recently described Scots as Tartan Tosspots and said that the answer to the West Lothian question was to build Hadrian's wall higher. Even more worryingly, however, it celebrated the fact that Scots died younger than their English counterparts. If such comments were made about any other race or religion there would rightly be a public outcry. When the Prime Minister next meets Rupert Murdoch will he ask him whether that is  The Sun's official view?

Nigel Griffiths: I will not comment on any one paper, but I deplore any such statements, just as I deplore the anti-English tone set in recent weeks by much of the Scottish media. My hon. Friend makes an important pointnewspaper editors pick on any one group at their peril. He mentioned a newspaper whose circulation, I am sure, has not recovered in Liverpool after its comments about Liverpudlians. I urge newspaper editors and hon. Members to be cautious in their use of language about any group, whether it be a minority group such as the Scots or a majority group such as the English.

John Hemming: The Deputy Leader of the House will be aware that one thing the Government are good at is exporting manufacturing jobs. Birmingham faces the loss of HP Sauce, and this week hundreds of job losses were announced in Cornwall, mainly as a result of energy prices. Trade unions and business are concerned about the energy penalty in the UK, so a debate is urgently needed. If we held such a debate after the recess, it would be too late to have an impact on the situation, so may we have an early debate on manufacturing, particularly in the light of the energy crisis?

Nigel Griffiths: The hon. Member may not have attended Trade and Industry questions, in which hon. Members asked about energy. My colleagues share those concerns, and they are working with energy producers on supply and pricing, which are important matters. In the past, British companies, in contrast to their foreign competitors, have benefited from low-cost contracts, but there is no doubt that recently they have been feeling the pressure. Of course, climate change prompts the question of the charges that we will impose on fuel and what impact that will have on business, but that is a subject for another debate.

James Clappison: As a native of east Yorkshire, may I welcome the Government's efforts to commemorate the life and work of William Wilberforce, both in this country and in north America? Can we find parliamentary time to commemorate himhe was, after all, Member of Parliament for Hulland would not such an occasion bring a smile to the face of one of the present Members of Parliament for Hull?

Nigel Griffiths: I wholly endorse what the hon. Member said about William Wilberforce. The issue has been raised by other hon. Members who share the hon. Gentleman's views, and we are looking at an appropriate way to recognise a terrific champion of the oppressed and one of history's great figures.

John Bercow: May I please reiterate the request by my right hon. Friend the shadow Leader of the House for a debate in Government time on the Floor of the House on special educational needs, in which I declare an interest as the father of a two-and-a-half-year-old boy who will almost certainly have such needs? Given the publication today of a report by the Select Committee on Education and Skills and, importantly, the widespread concern about the virtual omnipotence of local education authorities, which assess, decide, pay for and, more often than not, provide for those needs, is it not vital that we have an opportunity to air the issue in the Chamber and to decide a credible and attractive policy for some of the most vulnerable children in our community?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

Nigel Griffiths: The programme before the summer recess is under considerable pressure, but we will do our best. I will consult my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Skills, and tell him the views of the hon. Member and other hon. Members about the importance of the issue. May I say, too, that I am heartened that so many Members show such concern about this important issue?

Julian Lewis: May we have a debate on sentencing policy for very serious crimes? Such a debate would enable hon. Members on both sides of the House warmly to endorse the 28-year minimum sentence to be served by the vicious killers of Jody Dobrowski, who was murdered for no reason other than that he was a homosexual. That 28-year sentence will undoubtedly act as a deterrent. A debate would also give us an opportunity both to ask why murderers who kill people in exactly the same way as Mr. Dobrowski's murderers do not have to serve anything like the same sentence and why that deterrent is not deemed necessary in such cases.

Nigel Griffiths: This is a serious issue. As I have said, I do not think that the pressures on the parliamentary programme will allow a debate before the recess, but I am sure that there will be an opportunity in the spillover or the new Session for a debate on this important issue, in which all hon. Members will want to take part.

Greg Clark: It is helpful that the Deputy Leader of the House has put on the record the fact that the Government have been so long in office that they can dismiss people's concerns about the loss of green space in our towns and cities as trivial or irrelevant. Our constituents, and some of his hon. Friend's constituents, will be interested to discover that that is the case. However, can he say whether the Government Whips will object to my private Member's Bill when it is debated next week, as they did last time?

Nigel Griffiths: No, I am not aware of the arrangements for that debate. I am sure that if the hon. Member has adequate support for his private Member's Bill he will secure a closure, just as other hon. Members do. A measure of his support will be whether 100 Members are in the Chamber to secure that closure and the Bill's progress.

Nigel Evans: Has the Deputy Leader of the House seen early-day motions 2445 and 2038 relating to access to inhaled insulin products for diabetics?
	 [That this House disagrees with the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence's recent technology appraisal document which proposes the restriction of access to inhaled insulin products on the NHS to patients with 'a proven injection phobia diagnosed by a psychiatrist or psychologist'; is concerned that diabetes sufferers often delay treatment for as long as four years due to a fear of injections, risking the complications of heart disease, blindness and kidney failure, a situation that will only be compounded by attaching the unfortunate stigma of mental illness to those with a phobia of needles; expresses concern at the additional workload that will be placed on already overstretched NHS psychiatric services; and believes that the judgement of expert clinicians should be trusted in managing each individual patient's condition.]
	As the hon. Gentleman knows, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence says that before people may have access to such products, there must be a letter from a psychiatrist or a psychologist stating that they have a phobia about needles. Some diabetics inject four or five times a day. This is surely a quality of life issue, not just a phobia about needles. May we have a statement from a Minister in the Department of Health to say that inhaled insulin products will be made widely available to any diabetic who wants access to them?

Nigel Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman can table a question to the Secretary of State for Health on that matter and get her response, rather than taking it from me second hand.

Mark Pritchard: May we have an urgent debate on unemployment in Shropshire? Is the Deputy Leader of the House aware that today the Office for National Statistics confirmed to my office that between May 2005 and May 2006 unemployment in Shropshire rose by a whopping 30 per cent. and in The Wrekin parliamentary constituency by 32 per cent.? Does not that underline the importance of the Ministry of Defence giving the defence training review to RAF Cosford, thereby safeguarding 2,220 jobs and expanding jobs throughout Shropshire and the west midlands?

Nigel Griffiths: I have spent my political life condemning unemployment and fighting for more jobs, and, although there are 2.5 million more jobs since 1997, I obviously regret any job losses. No Government have done more than the present Government to ensure that people who do lose jobs, often for structural reasons in the economy, are re-employed, often in skilled jobs, and reskilled. That has happened time and again in community after community in Britain, so I am happy to ensure that the local Jobcentre Plus works with the hon. Gentleman and his constituents to look at the skills that they have and the opportunities that are available to ensure that that trend, which has given us more people in work than at any time in our history, continues.

Philip Davies: I have noticed that the Government have slipped out a U-turn in a written statement today on Sunday trading. Will the Deputy Leader of the House urge the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to make an oral statement or even make time for a debate on the matter, or is the Government's reluctance to debate the subject on the Floor of the House in any way linked to the fact that the constituents of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry are able to enjoy the benefits of deregulation of Sunday trading, yet are depriving my constituents and people in England generally of the same opportunity to work and shop, if they want to, on a Sunday?

Nigel Griffiths: It is very important that the Secretary of State has put out a statement in an appropriate manner. He was in the Chamber an hour ago answering questions at the Dispatch Box. The position on Sunday trading is clear. There is no demand. In the consultation of 1,000, the representations were from hon. Members, Church groups and others overwhelmingly for the status quo in England. The Scottish system is quite acceptable to people in Scotland, where there is no demand for change either. Indeed, there are some communities that I could name in the United Kingdom where any opening of a retail outlet on a Sunday is not only frowned on, but does not happen. We live in a pluralistic society. My right hon. Friend, having held a consultation and taken the evidence, has concluded that there is not an overwhelming demand for change. I would be happy for a debate to be held in the House, to see how many hon. Members on the Opposition as well as the Government Benches support change, but the early-day motion demanding the status quo was signed by well over 200 people. I remind the hon. Gentleman that it is not just Church groups and others that objected to an extension of Sunday trading. The workers, through the shop workers union, USDAW, objected to their hours being extended. I am not sure whether I have an interest to declare in that, since my constituency has had support from USDAW in the past. If so, that is duly noted.

Points of Order

Peter Lilley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday you intervened on a contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan), ruling that he could not discuss the Deputy Prime Minister's links with an American businessman while that is being considered by the Parliamentary Commissioner. All of us in the Chamber naturally accepted your ruling as definitive. Since then, however, the Deputy Prime Minister has broadcast for 25 minutes on the Today programme on the issue. I should be grateful if you now ruled, first, whether in so doing, he was acting within the spirit of your ruling, and secondly, now that he has done so, whether the House should be free to discuss the matter. I raise this because I know that you, like me, believe the Chamber should be the pre-eminent place that holds Ministers to account and discusses issues of concern to our constituents, and it would be bizarre if, as an unintended consequence of the rules of our House, we alone were not able to discuss what the rest of the nation and the broadcasting media are free to debate with the Deputy Prime Minister himself.

Mr. Speaker: I thank the right hon. Gentleman. He gave me some notice of the point of order. The Deputy Prime Minister's radio interview has no bearing on my ruling yesterday, which related only to a particular question. Perhaps I can take the opportunity to clarify matters.
	The House has established a mechanism for examining complaints relating to the code of conduct for Members. While those procedures are being followed, it is not appropriate for such complaints to be pursued in the House. The ministerial code is a separate matter, for which the Prime Minister is responsible, and questions on the application of the ministerial code in particular cases may be raised. I hope that helps the right hon. Gentleman.

Andrew MacKay: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I suspect that you are a devotee of the Radio 4 Today programme and might well have heard the rather long interview between Mr. John Humphrys and the Deputy Prime Minister. I hope you appreciate our frustration when we listen to such a debate, but cannot take part in it ourselves. Is the way round this for you to persuade the Deputy Prime Minister to come to the Dispatch Box and make a statement so that, like John Humphrys, I and other right hon. and hon. Members can ask him questions?

Mr. Speaker: To clarify matters, Mrs. Martin is a devotee of GMTV, and upstairs she is the boss. Seriously, I think I have clarified matters. On the code of conduct for Members, it must be borne in mind that I am seeking to protect every hon. Member, whether it be the Deputy Prime Minister or the two new Members who came into the House only a few days ago. If there is a complaint against them, we, the House, have set up the procedure of the Parliamentary Commissioner. I seek to protect everyone so that they at least get a fair hearing before the Parliamentary Commissioner. During that period, the matter is not pursued on the Floor of the House. As I said to the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) on the ministerial code, questions can be asked and there is nothing to prevent hon. Members from putting down questions at the Table Office, and I understand that that has already been done. There is no problem in seeking answers from any Minister of the Crown if they have a responsibility under the ministerial code.

Julian Lewis: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am glad the Secretary of State for Defence is present while I raise this point of order. I know that you have previously advised disgruntled Members on a number of occasions that the Chair is not responsible for the adequacy or otherwise of ministerial replies. Nevertheless, I draw your attention to the reply that I received yesterday to a question to the Secretary of State for Defence, asking
	whether he was informed of the proposed content relating to retention of the nuclear deterrent in the long-term of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Mansion House speech, prior to its delivery.
	The reply that I received states simply:
	I have regular discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a range of issues.[ Official Report, 5 July 2006; Vol. 448, c. 1107W.]
	Do you agree that that does not even attempt to answer the question? In asking the question, I was well aware of the fact that the Secretary of State for Defence has those discussions. If he does not wish to answer the question, it would perhaps be more courteous to state that he refuses to do so.

Mr. Speaker: I will not be drawn into an argument about the quality of ministerial replies. The hon. Gentleman knows that he can always ask the Secretary of State for Defence another question.

Julie Kirkbride: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I want to raise the issue of answers to parliamentary questions. On Wednesday 29 March, I tabled a question asking the Secretary of State for Health
	how many and what percentage of people were registered with an NHS dentist on 31 March 2006 in each constituency in England.
	I received the following response:
	The number of people registered with a national health service dentist by constituency as at 31 December 2005 has been placed in the Library.[ Official Report, 18 April 2006; Vol. 445, c. 209W.]
	I have that information here. On Wednesday 28 June, I tabled precisely the same question, to which I received the reply:
	This information is not collected in the form requested.
	I believe that the information is not collected in the form requested because new contracts came into force on 1 April. Ministers are trying to avoid responsibility for the fact that many people are not registered with NHS dentists. How can I get the Minister to respond to the same question that I tabled six months earlier, even if the response is embarrassing?

Mr. Speaker: It is not for me to tell the hon. Lady how to frame the next question. Perhaps she will obtain a response if she asks the Minister why she has been so inconsistent.

BILL PRESENTED

Extradition (United States)

Mr. Nick Clegg, supported by Mark Hunter, Lynne Featherstone, Mr. David Heath, Simon Hughes and Tim Farron, presented a Bill to require the presentation of prima facie evidence to a judge before a person can be extradited to the United States of America: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 14 July, and to be printed. [Bill 211].

Armed Forces Personnel

Motion made and question proposed, That this House do now adjourn .[Liz Blackman.]

Des Browne: I know that both sides of the House will join me in paying tribute to the soldier who was killed yesterday in Afghanistan, who was on patrol in northern Helmand. I would like to take this opportunity to offer our condolences to his family and friends. I have no doubt that hon. Members will add their condolences at the appropriate time, if they catch your eye, Mr. Speaker.
	I regret that on Monday my constituency arrangements, which were designed to make up for recent absences from my constituency on Government business, meant that I was unable to be in the House at 3.30 pm, when an Opposition urgent question was due to be answered. The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson), who was the duty Minister of the day, dealt with the question on the Government's behalf, and I thank him for doing soI think that he did a very good job.
	I also regret that I was consequently unable to correct immediately in the House the impression emerging in the media about a possible increase in our deployment to Afghanistan. It is, of course, entirely right that the Opposition should raise their concerns about troop numbers, and I understand that. However, I reassure the House that their concern was wrongly placed on two countsfirst, on the detail of requests from theatre, and secondly, in suggesting that those requests had got to the point in the process when recommendations were being considered by Ministers. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for correcting those points on Monday.
	I have made it clear on a number of occasions that there would be lessons to learn from the first months of our deployment in Afghanistan and that commanders on the ground would review their force package in that light. Indeed, that process had started before last weekend, and it is ongoing. All those involved in it are taking it forward as fast as they possibly can, but there is a great deal of detail that must be got right to ensure that our troops are properly prepared to carry on and carry out their mission.
	I confirm that today I have received advice on an additional deployment, which I am considering as a matter of urgency with the chiefs of staff, and I will announce my decision and the details of it to the House as soon as possible. This House will be the first to know. However, the House will also understand that there is a proper process to those decisions and that it would be entirely inappropriate and unhelpful, particularly to those who are in theatre, for me further to discuss the detail until that process is complete and until an announcement can be made. I have given this outline here today because I know that this is a matter of concern for hon. Members on both sides of the House. However, I hope that hon. Members will respect the process that I have described, that they will await the decision, which I repeat will be made very soon, and that they will concentrate on the subject of today's debate, in which I know they take a keen interest.

Nicholas Soames: There is indeed a process, which the House understands and accepts. I am sure that the Secretary of State wants to reach a speedy conclusion, but is he not being slightly disingenuous? The recommendation that has landed on his desk will probably have been staffed for longer than was necessary by the Ministry of Defence through the Permanent Joint Headquarters and the chiefs of staff in conclave. Surely the decision that he needs to take can be taken immediately.

Des Browne: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He knows that the process to which I have made general reference involves communication from the MOD back to theatre, and I shall have more to say about that when I explain my decision to the House. Today, that process has been completed up to the point where it can come to me. The decision must be a Government decision, because we have collective responsibility. I ask the House and the hon. Gentleman in particular, who has recently expressed his frustration about me personally in very candid ways both inside and outside the House, to be patient. The decision will be made in the proper time with the proper urgency, and it will be reported to this House appropriately.

Patrick Mercer: I understand what the Secretary of State has said. He knows as well as I that familiesit does not matter where they are, but he knowsare waiting on tenterhooks to know whether their husbands, fathers and brothers are going to be deployed to Afghanistan to support the brave men of 3 Para. I beg him to put them out of their misery.

Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman has personally expressed to me both inside and outside this House his support for our troops and for what our troops are doing in Afghanistan. I am grateful to him for that, and I discount entirely the fact that he could not resist the opportunity during the course of last week to express that support in some colourful language in relation to my absence from the HouseI understand what politics is all about. I am conscious of my responsibility not only to the troops who serve in theatre, but to their families, and I am also conscious of my responsibility to this House. When the decision is madeit will be made very soonI will report it to the House. I will ensure that the information is communicated as quickly as possible to those who need it to provide certainty in their family life.

James Gray: I welcome the Secretary of State's announcement and hope that he will take the decision quickly and smoothly. However, the Secretary of State needs to address one important point of process: on Monday morning's Today programme, the brigade commander in Afghanistan, who must have done this intentionallyI do not intend to get him into troubleannounced that he had requested extra resources in terms of men. The Under-Secretary then came to this House and said that no such request had been received. It was odd, to say the least, to hear the brigade commander say one thing and to hear the Under-Secretary deny it two or three hours later.

Des Browne: I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a deep and constant interest in these matters. I say to him and the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) that my Ministers, the Department and I are not responsible for any of the speculation, which may have fed the anxiety of familiesI meant to make that point in response to the earlier intervention by the hon. Member for Newark.
	I have tried to be as clear and open as possible about this process. When my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary answered the urgent question, he did so on behalf of Ministers. When I was able to get back to London, I made it clear in long and detailed interviews, which were freely available to everybody, that I was aware that the commander had asked for additional engineering resources and enablers. That was part of the iterative process that was going on. That is in the public domain, and that is what Brigadier Ed Butler was referring to when he was interviewed.
	Since then, a further process has been going on between the Department and theatre which has culminated in the request that has come to me today, the details of which I am not prepared to go into for obvious reasons that I think that everybody understands and accepts. I give a clear undertaking to the House that I will make the decision and announce it to the House as quickly as possible.

Mark Pritchard: Will that imminent decision include the immediate review to which the Minister referred on Monday in this House concerning armoured vehicles in Iraq and in Afghanistan? Will Warrior armoured vehicles be supplied to the front line, where there is a demand for them, thereby reducing casualties resulting from Snatch Land Rover use?

Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman expands the debate from one theatre to another. In the early part of the debate, I wanted to restrict my observations in order to keep the House informed about Afghanistan. He now wishes me to turn my attention to Iraq.  [ Interruption. ] That is exactly what he asked me to do, and I am prepared to do it. I will deal with it specifically in a later stage of my speech, because it is relevant to the issue of personnel. The hon. Gentleman should not expect, nor should the House, that I will deal with an Iraq-specific issue in the context of a statement in relation to Afghanistan, although I understand that it has implications for the use of resources, particularly vehicles in other theatres. I point out to the hon. Gentleman that Warrior armoured vehicles are available to those in Iraq. The shadow Secretary of State has raised this issue with me during Defence questions. As I understand it, we identified a deficiency in capability as regards Snatch Land Rovers and the fully armoured vehicles and thought that it needed to be addressed. Because of changing circumstances in Iraq, I have accepted that I need to conduct a review, which is ongoing and will be concluded as quickly as possible.
	With respect to hon. Members, I do not wish to expand the debate into a debate about operational matters. I wanted to refer to operational matters because I thought that the House deserved a response from me as Secretary of State so that it would know exactly what the position is. If hon. Members wish to ask questions about this part of my speech, I will be happy to answer them, but I am anxious not to expand the debate at this stage.

Bernard Jenkin: I think that what Members are looking for, and many of us are confused that we are not getting, is a general assurance that when our armed forces are put into a combat situation where their lives are at risk, there is a general principle, which is that whatever they ask for to secure life and limb they will get without question. Can the Secretary of State give me the assurance that whatever they have asked for, they will get if we can possibly give it to them?

Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman asks for an assurance that he qualifies at the end in a way that allows that me to say, Of course. Given the body language that I see around me, with the nodding heads and the responses to the hon. Gentleman's question from his hon. Friends, I believe that everybody understands this. I do not stand here at the Dispatch Box with the operational experience or skill to be able to make decisions. As I have said before, I rely substantially on advice from people who have those skills. The process has been gone through, as a result of which recommendations have come to me. I have made it perfectly clear publicly, as I am sure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary did on Monday, that we will be open to responding to those recommendations appropriately in any way that we can. I will announce that to the House in detail as soon as I can.

Tobias Ellwood: The reason why Iraq was brought up is that the governmental commitments mean that we have a case of overstretch. We have not seen more troops tasked to Afghanistan, because none are available. That is the quagmire that we now face. When I was in Afghanistan very recently, I heard from Brigadier Ed Butler, from General Jones, the head of NATO, and from General Richards, the head of the international security assistance force. They are all desperately in need of more equipment. They cannot do the job under present circumstances because the mission has fundamentally changed from peacekeeping to war-fighting. Until the Secretary of State and his Ministers recognise that, we will have more losses, as we had this weekend.

Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman puts me in a somewhat invidious position, because contemporaneous with the conversations that he reports to the House in shorthand, I had detailed conversations with all those same people, and I stand before this House unequivocally saying that that is not what they said to me. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman and I should have a more detailed discussion outside the Chamber in which he can report to me exactly what was said to him and who said it.
	Let me say one other thing to the hon. Gentleman. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said at this Dispatch Box yesterday, we have part of a responsibility for the international effort in Afghanistan that is shared with more than 40 other countries. Not all those countries have sent troops but some 38 have. I think that 38 is the right figure, but it does not matterit is a significant number. My responsibility is to ensure that in the context of our commitment to the task that we have taken on, and for the safety of our troops, I provide those troops with the very best resources.
	At the end of the day, there is broad agreement across the House that not doing what we are doing in Afghanistan is not an option. It is not only about the Afghan people to whom we owe a responsibility, or about the security of the region, but about the security of our people on our streets in this country and across the developed world. The forces in Afghanistan who are resisting what we are seeking to doto enable the Government's writ to run in that countrywere there before we ever became involved and were allowing the training of terrorists to go on in order to deliver the sort of activity that they delivered to the people of New York and potentially deliver to the whole developed world. There is no do nothing option.

Chris Bryant: I think that most fair-minded Members would accept that it is important that my right hon. Friend reaches his decision fairly in the way that he has outlined. He mentioned the 37 other countries that are already involved. Is he urging other countries to make significant further contributions as well? While British forces often form the glue that holds international coalitions together, it is also important that the expertise that some other countries can bring is provided in greater numbers and greater strength.

Des Browne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. Indeed, I am grateful for the support of Members on both sides of the House, particularly, through me, their support for those who are doing this very difficult job in Afghanistan and paying the terrible price that they have been paying recently for their engagement particularly with the Taliban. We accepted the responsibility for doing this in the context of ISAF and under the leadership of NATO. We have made it very clear to NATO that we expect our allies in NATO to step up to the plate and to provide the level of support that we know that they have and can be deployed to deliver the results that NATO has taken responsibility for delivering. I will continue to do that through the appropriate NATO channels, and through General Richards and others, to ensure that people deliver what they are capable of delivering.
	My principal responsibility, as I have used the first part of my speech to repeat to the House, is to ensure that the troops in the Helmand taskforce whom we have sent to take part in the reconstruction of the part of Afghanistan for which we have taken responsibility are given the equipment to do the job that they need to do, and, in particular, given the security to be able to do it as safely as they possibly can, recognising that it is a very dangerous part of the world. In short, that is why we sent Apache attack helicopters with artillery and why we sent some of our finest troops there to do the job in the first place.
	If hon. Members will allow me, it is time that I made some progress on the broader waterfront of our debate.
	Yesterday's death, together with other recent fatalities in Afghanistan and Iraq, remind us that, although the nature of modern conflict is different in many ways from conflicts of the past, the ultimate human cost is the same.
	Over recent weeks, I have had the privilege of meeting many of our servicemen and women, who come from all parts of the UK, serve in all parts of the UK and across the globe and display the courage and professionalism that make our armed forces the envy of the world. However, I have also been reminded of how, as well as being ultimate professionals, they are, first and foremost, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, and sons and daughters. We must support and respect them not only as professionalsI stress that they are professionalbut as people. That is the subject of our debate todayhow we support our armed forces.
	The first point to make is that we are asking our armed forces to do more than ever, placing greater demands on them and their families, and therefore placing a correspondingly greater duty on ourselves to support what they are doing. The Ministry of Defence currently has more than 24,000 service personnel on operations in more than 15 countries. That includes around 7,200 in Iraq, around 5,000 in Afghanistan, and around 900 in the Balkans. More than 300 are supporting various UN deployments around the world. There are approximately 8,500 in Northern Ireland, although the welcome political progress, albeit not yet completed, of recent years has allowed troop numbers to be reduced there.

David Wright: My right hon. Friend describes the brave work of our troops around the globe and the extent of our commitment. I am therefore worried that, earlier this week, he announced a major reorganisation of the Defence Logistics Organisationwhich will affect more than 400 members of staff in my constituency in Telfordrelating to a co-location project. It is the wrong time, when our troops need front-line support the most, to undertake such reorganisation. Will he and his colleagues agree to meet trade union representatives to discuss the matter? I am fearful that we will lose many skilled civilian staff if the decision goes ahead.

Des Browne: I am conscious of the importance of not only those who serve in uniform but the civilians who support them, and my hon. Friend will be pleased to know that I shall say something about that later, assuming that I do not feel that I have taken up more time than I am entitled to take. Lest I do not get to that part of my speech, let me make a couple of points.
	There is never a right time for reorganisation. There are always things going on, and, in my experience of the Ministry of Defence, that will apply for the foreseeable future. People will be deployed throughout the world and they will need logistical support. It will always be argued that there is no right time to undertake reorganisation. However, if the motivation is to improve the service that we provide for those whom we ask to operate on the front line, as it is in this case, the right time for reorganisation is now, when we realise that it can be done. A detailed statement was made and I was conscious, when making it in written form, of the debate today, when hon. Members would have an opportunity to make a contribution from their constituencies' and other perspectives.
	My hon. Friend asked a specific question about consultation. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who has responsibility for the armed forces, my noble Friend Lord Drayson, the Under-Secretary of State with responsibility for defence procurement, and I made a specific point of meeting the trade unions in confidence, as we did with the industry, before making the statement. We felt that that consultation was appropriate. We made it clear to the trade unions that all our announcements are subject to consultation. If my hon. Friend has read the statement, he knows that it specifically states that. His request that we consult those who have worked for us and served us loyally for many years and whom we greatly value receives a ready, positive response. That consultation will take place.
	I am conscious that modernisation has consequences for those who work for us, but we must accept them for two reasons. First, we must release resources and use them to support directly those whom we put in theatre. Secondly, we must ensure that we have the most efficient method not only of buying the equipment we need for those whom we put in theatre but of supporting it through life.

Sadiq Khan: My right hon. Friend spoke of the corresponding duty that we owe our armed forces. In Afghanistan, our armed forces serve alongside those of 40 other countries under United Nations authority as a result of the invitation by President Karzai. Does not he believe that we could better engage with and inform the British public about exactly what our armed forces are doing and the reason for it, as part of that corresponding duty to them?

Des Browne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but he anticipates part of my speech. If he and other hon. Members will be patient, I will try to cover that issue as quickly as possible.
	I referred to those whom we have deployed in operations throughout the world. Our reservists, too, have an important role to play. They contribute exceptionally valuable sets of skills. Last year, some 1,300 reservists were called upon to support operations, especially in Iraq, where there are some 450 in theatre, but also in the Balkans, Afghanistan and Sierra Leone. That is not newaround 10 per cent. of our forces deployed in Bosnia in the mid-1990s were Territorial Army volunteers. However, the numbers have been increasing since we strengthened the reserves in the 1998 strategic defence review, precisely to bring them closer to the regular forces and make them more deployable.
	In the past two months, I have met both regular forces, reservists and civilians at home and abroad. In Iraq and Afghanistan in particular, I have been struck by the difficult work that we ask them to do, and the harsh and dangerous conditions in which they have to do it. In return, it is our duty to ensure they are well motivated, well equipped, well protected and properly trained, and that their welfare is given proper priority. I fully accept that obligation and I shall try to comment on each aspect if hon. Members will bear with me.
	The first duty that we owe all our men on women on operations is a clear sense of why they are there. There has been some speculation in the House and elsewhere that our mission in Afghanistan, especially in Helmand, is unclear. I just do not believe that that is truemore importantly, nor do the men and women who are carrying out the mission. They are there to help the Afghans rebuild their country after three decades of continuous war. However, first, they must establish a level of security that will allow the rebuilding to begin. That is an especially challenging task in Helmand, which has been an essentially lawless area for years.
	The various elementsthe Taliban, the drug lords, the criminal networksthat have profited from the lawlessness will resist any attempt to bring security to the local people. That is understandable from their perspective. They will attack our forces. We know thatwe knew that before we deployed our forces and we were prepared for itand we will defend ourselves. If necessary, we will use force to pre-empt attack. Helmand is a dangerous place; this is dangerous work. As I have said and as my predecessor continually said in and outside the House, that is why we sent soldiers to do it. However, it is also vital work. One cannot rebuild Afghanistan without tackling Helmand, the south and the east of the country.
	We must rebuild Afghanistan. We cannot again abandon its people or allow it to become a training ground for terrorism. The UN and the international community understand that. That is why there are troops from 40 countriesfrom Germany to Sweden to Canada, as well as the United Statesalongside ours. Most importantly, our troops understand that.

Bob Russell: How many of the 38 other countries have troops in Helmand province?

Des Browne: Of the 38, three have troops in Helmand province. I do not have a list of all the countries that have a presence in different parts of Afghanistan and how many troops they have deployed. I could get it and read it out but it would not tackle the hon. Gentleman's point. I believe that his point is that we have taken on the most dangerous part of the country. He should ask the Canadians about that. They are in the province next door to us, in Kandahar, and were there before we went into Helmand province with the taskforce. They have suffered significant casualties. I am told that, in Afghanistan's recent history, the Taliban have used Kandahar as a base for years.
	That is the key to defeating the Taliban, and the Canadians have taken that on with the United States of America. We are taking on a very dangerous part of the country, and we are equipped and able to do that. That is not only my view, but the view of the commanders whom we have asked to do this job on the ground. But there are others who are sharing those dangers with us equally by taking on other parts of Afghanistan that are just as dangerous, if notin some people's viewmore so.

Tobias Ellwood: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way; he has been very generous. My intervention is on NATO and on the collective footprint that we are supposed to be creating in Afghanistan. He mentioned the impact that Germany was making, but he must know that constitutional caveats prevent the German troops from getting involved, and even from getting out of their trucks. They cannot fire a shot. They are much more limited in what they can do. The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned Kandahar, the neighbouring province to Helmand. The next province along is Nimroz, where there is not one international soldier because NATO does not have enough forces available. This is what worries the Conservatives. We are very much in favour of what the United Kingdom is doing in Afghanistan, but we do not believe that there are enough troops for the task. That is why NATO in Brussels needs to sort itself out.

Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman clearly has extensive and accurate knowledge of the situation, no doubt based on his recent visit to Afghanistan as well as on other sources. Of course some of the troops deployed there are subject to caveats, but that does not mean that they cannot do an important job

Tobias Ellwood: That is not what I said.

Des Browne: Well, from the way in which he asked his question, the hon. Gentleman might have left the House with the impression that the Germans were not doing as worthwhile a job because of the caveats, but they can be deployed in parts of Afghanistan where improvements have already been made. Such deployment then releases troops who are not subject to caveats to move into other areas. That is why the NATO command is a boon for what we are seeking to do. As it increasingly takes over responsibility across Afghanistan, it will be open to General Richards and others to deploy forces in a way that takes the best advantage of their abilities. Equally, however, some countries have lifted the caveats from their troops in light of the circumstances in Afghanistan because they increasingly accept that those caveats are a hindrance to doing the job required there.
	I recognise the challenge that faces NATO, but I repeat to the hon. Gentleman that there is no point in wringing our hands about the training of terrorists when we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to move Afghanistan forward in the south and east in the same way as we have done in the north and west, and, once and for all, to get a Government in there who can hold that ground and deny it to terrorists for training. We have to do that job, although I accept that it generates challenges for us.
	Some peopleI exclude everyone whom I see in the House at the momentsuggest that there is confusion about what our troops are doing there, but our troops are going into villages in Afghanistan and telling people what their mission is, because they know and understand what it is. That puts the lives of our troops in danger, however, and anyone who does not understand that is getting perilously close to being guilty of criminal negligence. We are asking our troops to go out and explain to the local people that they are there for reconstruction purposes. If the Taliban are able to relay, from discussions that take place in the United Kingdom, that that is not the case, and that we are there for some other purposesuch as hunting the Talibanor that our primary focus is crop eradication, that would put our troops in danger, given the nature of Afghanistan. We must be very careful about how we debate these issues in the House.
	I am grateful to the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), who, in my absence, made that specific point in his urgent question on Monday. We must all accept that we have a common responsibility to be very careful about how we debate this issue. If we accept that the job must be done, and that we must commit our best resources to it, we must all accept the responsibility to behave in a way that will keep those troops safe. To suggestfor political or other reasonsthat they have vulnerabilities, or that there is confusion when no confusion exists, puts people's lives at risk.
	There is clarity about what we are doing, but how we do it is complex. However, confusing the complexity with the objective is putting people's lives at risk. I know that everyone whom I see in the House today accepts their responsibility to play their part, but I must send out that important message to people outside the House. Playing political games, or other games, with what is going on in Afghanistan is putting people's lives at risk, and we have to be very careful [ Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) should not shake his head as though I am accusing him of that. I have particularly exonerated those in the House today. However, he gives me the opportunity to say something that I have been wanting to say

Tobias Ellwood: These matters have to be debated.

Des Browne: Many things have been said about me since I became Secretary of State for Defence [ Interruption. ] Just a moment. However, nobody can say that I am not prepared to debate these issues. I am prepared to debate them and to try to get them right. My responsibility is not just about my job and me; it is to ensure that the job that we have taken on, and that we accept that we must do, in Afghanistan in order to make the world a much safer place, is done properly. It is also my responsibility to ensure that those whom we have put in at the sharp end are made as secure as possible. There should be no suggestion that there are other motivations behind our task, because they just do not exist.

Robert Key: I endorse entirely what the Secretary of State has said. He will understand that almost all of us in the House share his view. When the Minister for the armed forces appeared before us on the Defence Committee, we identified certain issues that were sensitive and could cause harm to our soldiers on the ground. We therefore requested that we go into private session, where we were able to share our concerns privately, and discuss them seriously and in great detail. The Minister will be able to respond in his own way, but at least we have had a proper discussion about those matters in a sensible and informed way.

Des Browne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reinforcing my point. I am also grateful to him for acknowledging that the House has had decades of experience of balancing its responsibility to hold the Government to account with that of ensuring that the troops whom we send to carry out dangerous functions are protected and not exposed to vulnerability through public debate. There are ways of doing that, and those who have had private briefings or conversations with me outside the Chamber will know that I am open to sharing the relevant information. It is not secret. The more I share it with people whom I can trust to keep it confidential, the more safe we can make our troops on the ground. I am entirely open to any devices or procedures that allow us to exercise proper accountability and to hold proper debate, and that allow me to draw on the resource of skills and experience that many people in the House have on these matters.
	It might not be obvious to anyone listening, but this is not a debate about operations. However, it is entirely appropriate, in a debate about supporting our armed forces, to remind ourselves of the dangers of allowing the impression to be created that our forces are not clear about what they are being sent to do, when in fact the opposite is the case.
	The second thing that we owe to all our servicemen and women on operations is to provide them with the equipment and protection to do their jobs safely and effectively. Of course that protection will never be absolute. Soldiering is an inherently dangerous business. As I have said, we send our forces to do the job in Iraq and Afghanistan because they are dangerous places. But we must do the best we can to give our people the protection that they need. We must relentlessly improve our equipment and technology to counter the evolving threat.
	In response to that evolving threat, we have developed and brought into service two new body armour systems in the past two years: Kestrel for top-cover sentries, and Osprey for general use. Osprey is a world-leading system that has been developed and delivered in a very short time. It will further reduce the risk of life-threatening injuries from terrorist attack and is being issued to all personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan.
	The same applies to the protection on our vehicles. I know hon. Members are very concerned about that, after recent tragic incidents, and rightly so. The threat from improvised explosive devicesIEDshas been evolving over the past two years, and possibly much longer. Indeed, we have some experience of the evolution of such devices in Northern Ireland. Responding to that has been one of our highest priorities. In the past two years alone, we have spent 120 million on improving force protection for our ground forces in Iraq, including electronic counter measures for Snatch Land Rovers and other vehicles. We continue to invest in further research on IEDs in collaboration with the USA, and we are determined to maintain our world-leading capability in that area.
	Improved armour is also part of the solution, and I assure hon. Members that additional armoured options will become available to commanders over the next year. A new patrol vehicle, Vector, will enter service in Afghanistan in 2007. We have already upgraded the protection on Warrior, Saxon and the CVR(T), and we are currently upgrading it on the FV430 vehicle. I have also directed an urgent review of what could be done now to give commanders further options.
	However, Snatch Land Rovers will continue to be an important option. The Army's approach to its role in Iraq and broadly in Afghanistanalthough not on certain tasksrequires a low profile and a highly mobile patrol vehicle that allows troops to engage with local people. As people will have seen from their television screens, paratroopers in Afghanistan prefer to walk the streets of towns there with soft hats on. That is not our decision, but a decision made by their commanders in the light of what they are trying to do. It is clear from the pictures relayed back in recent days that that engagement works in a substantial part of the area for which they have taken responsibility. Larger and significantly heavier vehicles, such as Warrior, might be better armoured, but they are not always suitable for the lower profile and less intimidating manner in which the Army often prefers to operate. That, in turn, feeds into the security of our forces, because their relationship with the people with whom they work is an important component of security.
	We must remember, however, that equipmentarmour and other counter measuresis only one element of protection. According to the experts who have advised me continuously over past weeks, it is only about a third of the story. The rest is down to intelligence gathering, surveillance and proactive operations to disrupt and capture insurgents, and to the tactics that our troops adopt to minimise the risks of successful attack. I am told by experienced commanders that they sometimes choose not to be in a vehicle at all but to walk the streets, which is much safer than being cooped up in a vehicle and provides a degree of flexibility.
	That is another reminder of why trainingthe next subject that I want to cover todayis so important. Our armed forces are trained to the exacting standards required both for high-intensity modern warfare and to operate in the complex operational environment of modern peace support operations. Commentators sometimes talk about peacemaking, peace enforcement and peacekeeping as though they were mutually exclusive operations that followed sequentially. In practice, they can often happen all at the same time, sometimes in the same community, and sometimes just a few miles apart. Our forces need to train for that, and I firmly believe that they are the best in the world at managing that complex environmentcarrying out military tasks but also supporting wider development and foreign policy objectives. That is why we invest so much time and so many resources in training our people to ensure that they are fully able to do the jobs that we ask them to do.
	The House will understand the challenge inherent in military trainingtaking young people from everyday life, often without qualifications, and turning them in a matter of months into skilled soldiers, sailors or airmen who are able to survive on the battlefield. Much has already been done to improve service training and the welfare of our trainees. However, the Deepcut review identified a number of areas where we must further improve. As we said in our response published last month, we intend to use that review as a blueprint for further action.
	We are also looking to improve our training system more widely. The defence training review will ensure that training is delivered in a modern training environment, suitable to modern living. I am aware that the review will affect the constituencies of many hon. Members. I hope that the House will understand that delivering effective training to the armed forces will be paramount in the decisions that we must take over the coming months. Meeting the operational demands of today, delivering training for the future and giving our people time to recuperate and spend time with their families has always been a challenge, and it is a more significant one at present. Senior military commanders advise me, however, that underusing highly trained troops is as bad for morale as overusing them. However, we need to strike a balance between deploying people to do the job for which they joined up, training and allowing them to spend time with their families.
	To help to get that balance right, we have what we call harmony guidelines for the amount of time that service personnel spend away from their families and the intervals that units should enjoy between operational tours. For example, around 18 per cent. of the Army are currently deployed on operationsa figure with which the Army is comfortable. Only 4 per cent. of the RAF, 1 per cent. of the Royal Navy and 15 per cent. of the Army currently exceed harmony guidelines, but, as ever, overall statistics are not the whole story. We must pay attention to the stress on those who exceed the guidelines, who include infantry and key enablers such as communications and logistics specialists. We keep our manning under constant review and take appropriate measures to avoid overstretch, which include the fundamental restructuring in which all three services are engaged to adjust their force elements to meet the operational requirements of the 21st century.

Mark Pritchard: Given that there are 2,500 people at RAF Cosford in Shropshire anxiously awaiting the outcome of the defence training review, has a clear date been set for the decision to be made?

Des Browne: I pay credit to the hon. Gentlemanand if it does not do him a disservice, he can report that back to his constituents if he wishesbecause I was here at business questions when he also raised that matter; clearly it is of some importance to him. Given the approaches made to me by those who represent parts of the country that might benefit from the outcome of the training review, he will understand that his interest is shared by a number of right hon. and hon. Members.

Pete Wishart: rose

Chris Bryant: rose

Des Browne: If the hon. Gentlemen wait for my answer to the question, they might not need to intervene.
	The hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) asks whether a more precise date is available than that previously put in the public domain. The answer to that, at this stage, is no. We are still collating, consulting and bringing together the information. We have set ourselves the target of concluding this part of the process by about the end of this year. I have no reason to believe that we will not meet that target, but I cannot be any more precise than that.

Pete Wishart: The Secretary of State has been generous in taking interventions. In relation to the Deepcut review, what progress has been made in implementing Nicholas Blake's recommendations? Does he have any further comment about the creation of an independent ombudsman, which was a key recommendation of Nicholas Blake, on which the Government have been prevaricating?

Des Browne: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, as it gives me the opportunity to say that we have made significant progress in relation to the review conducted by Nicholas Blake QC, to whom I have not yet had the opportunity to express my gratitude. I do so now in relation to the significant work that he did to help us to draw a line under that set of circumstances, although I accept that no such line will ever be drawn for those who were most tragically affected. I express my condolences now to those who have suffered. We have made significant progress. Many of the recommendations have already been acted on, and a substantial number will be implemented when the Armed Forces Bill becomes law. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to have a more detailed line-by-line account, he should contact me after the debate, and I would be happy to provide that.

Chris Bryant: The Secretary of State probably now knows what direction my question will take. Following the earlier point, many of us in south Wales hope that the defence training review will lead in the direction of St. Athan. Will he clarify that ensuring that the best training is available for our armed forces, rather than any political considerations, will be paramount in the decision?

Des Browne: I think all Members agree with that. Certainly it is the principal focus of the Ministry of Defence.
	We work hard to recruit and retain sufficient capable and motivated armed forces, in the context of a strong economy that provides increasing opportunities and more and more young people taking up the chance of further education. I can see the jobcentre from my constituency offices. I realise that I must apologise for the amount of time that I spend in my constituency, although I must say that being castigated for being in his constituency is not the worst thing that ever happens to a constituency Memberbut I have dealt with that issue already, and I genuinely regret that I was not here on Monday. The point is that the number of people recruited through my local jobcentre reflects the state of the economy in my part of the world much more than anything else.
	Our forces require some 18,000 new recruits annually. Over the last two years we have met 96 per cent. of that target. We have taken steps to sustain and improve recruitment in specific shortage areas through, for example, recruiting bounties in the infantry and the Royal Artillery. Retention, too, is generally satisfactory. Each year some 19,000 people leave our forces, around 10 per cent. of the total number. People leave, of course, for a variety of unavoidable reasons, such as retirement, injury and, regrettably, illness. We focus our retention efforts on those who choose to leave, and there have been no significant trends in that direction in any of the three services over the past three years.
	Although we should never be complacent about our ability to recruit and retain the people who constitute our greatest asset, I do not believe that accusations of a manning crisis are justified by the facts; nor has anything that I have heard or seen given me any reason to doubt that the quality of our people is every bit as good as it ever was.

David Wright: rose

Des Browne: I do not intend to give way again, because I am conscious that it is not just my time that is being taken up. Others will wish to speak.  [Interruption.] As I am now being told that we have got all day, and invited by a Back Bencher to give way, I will do so.

David Wright: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Will he take another look at some of the issues relating to localisation of recruitment? One of the results of the breakdown of regimental links with counties is that people may not feel the loyalty to all parts of the armed forces that they used to feel. We have also stopped naming much of our battle fleet after counties with which they have connections: for instance, we no longer have an HMS Shropshire. Perhaps we ought to have an HMS Shropshire, so that we can develop links between our counties and our services. That is incredibly important.

Des Browne: With respect, I think we have just launched an HMS Clyde.
	At the weekend, when I visited the Somme battlefield, I spent a good deal of time in the cemeteries. I was struck by the number of Army names on the gravestones of whose existence I had not known, and which had disappeared from the lexicon of the British Army decades ago.

Patrick Mercer: That is sad.

Des Browne: But what also struck me was the fact that throughout the 20th century the Army had been a changing institution. Some of those names have passed into history. I do not have a sense that change has been to the detriment of the Army, because it can still be described as one of the best military institutions in the world, if not the best. It might have some competition from other services in the United Kingdom, but that is where the competition comes from.
	Like the other services, the Army has been able to adjust to changes as they have happenedand as I have learnt more about the history of our services, I have realised that they have been happening for quite some time. I suspect that there were debates like this, and crisis was predicted, every time they did happen. However, I acknowledge the importance of enabling people to serve in a way that allows them to identify with a particular group recruited from a particular part of the country, and I will think about the extent to which we are able to do that in the context of the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright).
	Our armed forces rightly expect the best possible standards of medical care. We recognise that the aftercare of a few people, regular and reservist, returning from operations has sometimes fallen short of that ideal. Any such case is one too many, and we are viewing the position afresh to ensure that those people have the support that they deserve. In May, we announced a new post-operational mental health care programme for reservists demobilised since 2003 in response to an independent study by King's college London, funded by the MOD. The study found that there was no evidence so far of a repetition of the Gulf war syndrome illness that was reported as a result of the 1991 Gulf war, and to that extent there has been progress, but it did find a higher incidence of mental health indicators among reservists than among regulars. There was a complicated explanation of the possible cause, related to support structures and a return either to the Army or to civilian life. There is a new programme to tackle the issues, which will be introduced later in the year.
	Service families have an important voice, and we listen to what they say. Our servicemen and women cannot give of their best on operations if they are worried about things at home. I am particularly grateful to the family federations from the different services for helping us to identify and address the key issues that affect families most. One of the major concerns is accommodation. Ensuring that our service personnel and their families have the accommodation that they need and deserve is a top priority. I admit that it has been a problem, but we have several initiatives under way to get things back on track. For example, project SLAMsingle living accommodation modernisationis being applied throughout England, Wales and Scotland. The first five-year contract, valued at about 0.5 billion, was awarded in 2002, and since then more than 5,500 bed spaces have been completed. The number will rise to 9,000 by 2008.
	For service families, we have found the money to improve about twice as many houses as we had planned to improve in 2005-06, managing to complete around 1,200 upgrades against a target of 600. However, there much more to be done. A regional housing prime contract for all repairs and maintenance was introduced first in Scotland, and has led to improved standards of work and responsiveness, with much higher levels of satisfaction for families. There have been teething troubles with the more recent prime contract in England and Wales. While the strategy is right, its implementation so far has just not been good enough. My Department has given a commitment that that will be sorted out, and it will be sorted out.
	There will come a time whenhaving worked so hard, served us so well and done so many things to contribute to the country and to making the world a safer placeour servicemen and women prepare to return to civilian life. As soon as they leave, they become veterans. Although we often associate veterans with the world wars, more than half a million former members of our armed forces are still of working age. Those veterans may have served in the Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans or even closer to home.
	As part of our youth agenda, we have run educational programmes to help younger people in particular to understand what our veterans have achieved, andequally importantto reinforce the qualities of service, courage and selflessness that they represent. We are also expanding cadet activities for young people. Last year there were some 130,000 cadets, and 23,000 adult volunteers supporting them. This is the largest voluntary youth organisation in the United Kingdom, and it helps young people to become confident and responsible members of the community. We want to give more young people the opportunity to benefit.
	My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East, announced last week that we would pilot an expansion of the combined cadet force in six state schools. I am pleased to announce that among them will be the schools run by the Haberdashers' Aske's Federation in Bromley in Kent and New Cross in south London. We expect to announce the other participants soon. I hope that following those pilotsand that is what they werewe will see the establishment of CCF units in a much wider range of state schools than at present.
	I cannot end my speech without also paying tribute to our civilian work force, and the crucial contribution to defence made by more than 80,000 civilian employees at home and abroad. Civilians play a vital and loyal role in the delivery of defence capability in the context of almost every aspect of our work. They deploy with our forces in operational theatres, both to advise military commanders and to manage associated infrastructure. They man the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service, and are central to the key area of acquisition and maintenance of equipment used by our armed forces.
	Hon. Members will be aware of the announcement earlier this week of important changes in this area, which responded to the recent report on defence procurement that was commissioned following the publication of the defence industrial strategy last December. My right hon. Friend the Minister for the armed forces will cover those changes in more detail in his summing up, responding to the contributions of hon. Members, but may I say that the aim behind them is clear? Our armed forces deserve the best equipment and support that we can give them.
	In today's world, technology changes very quickly and the needs of our armed forces change with it. Our management and civilian structures must change too, and I know that the changes will have a significant impact on a loyal work force who have made a consistent contribution to defence, supporting personnel deployed on the front line. I can assure the House that we will work to mitigate the consequences, but I have no doubt that systematic change of that nature is necessary if we are to achieve our objective of supporting the front line even better in future.
	We have much to be proud of in the United Kingdom, especially in our armed forces. We owe a great debt to the men and women currently serving in uniform and the civilians who support them. They will, in turn, take their place among the veterans of yesterday, whom we have all been honouring in this year of moving anniversaries. I take the role of Defence Secretary with the utmost seriousness, as I recognise that it is my job to honour our people, support them and represent them. It is a tremendous privilege so to do.

Liam Fox: Let me begin by paying tribute to all our servicemen and women who make this country's armed forces among the very best in the world. Let me pay tribute, in particular, to all those who have been killed or injured in active service on our behalf in Iraq and Afghanistan while they were attempting to bring stability and security for people who long to have what we in this country too often take for granted. I pay tribute to all our servicemen and women who are presently toiling in dreadful conditions of heat and dust, making those missions sustainable.
	Let me also pay tribute to all those service families who make huge sacrifices over many years to enable the smooth functioning of service life. It is a great pity that the public in general are so unaware of the contribution that service families make to the quality of our military capability. Not all our heroes are in uniform and I echo the remarks of the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan), who is no longer in his place, that we should take every opportunity to educate the public about the security role played by our troops, by our service families and, as the Secretary of State has said, by civilians, who all contribute hugely to our successes.
	Of course, our forces cannot be sustained by our words of admiration alone. It has been pointed out in previous debates that this yearand despite the talk about record investmentwe are spending just 2.2 per cent. of our gross domestic product on defence, which is the lowest proportion of our national income spent on defence in any year since 1930. The significance lies not in the figure itself, but in the fact that we have more and more operational commitments overseas, while we have lost more than 10,000 servicemen from the Army, 10,000 from the Navy and more than 10,000 from the Royal Air Force since 1997.
	The Secretary of State is correct that retention in the armed forces is broadly good, but recruitment levels show no sign of improvement. Recruitment to the Army has fallen by a quarter in just two years, to the Navy also by a quarter and to the RAF by a shocking two thirds. Since 1997, the establishment size of the infantry alone has fallen by half from 16,000 and, in reality, its strength is a further 15 per cent. lower than that in any case. According to the Army's own figures, out of 43 battalions, only the Royal Gurkha Rifles is up to strength as of May 2006. The 2nd Royal Welch Fusiliers and the 1st Staffordshire Regiment are as many as 150 under strength.
	It is not even an argument to say that we can rely on the reserves, because since 1997, the Territorial Army has shrunk from 56,000 to 32,000. As the National Audit Office's recent report on reserves makes clear, all volunteer reserves are below strength and the situation is worsening. My own experience of reserve forces is that they perform an important role with great professionalism and are admired by the regulars, but the NAO report is a cause of worry to those who have read it. It states:
	some commanders in the field noted that a number of Reservists were less physically and mentally prepared than they needed to be for the demanding operational and climatic environment they faced
	and that reservist officers
	sometimes lacked the experience to command soldiers as effectively as their Regular counterparts.
	That takes on increased importance because we are using reserves, as the Secretary of State said, in present operations.

Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is making some important points about the Territorial Army. Will he comment on a suggestion put to me in respect of the 104th Regiment, Royal Artillery, headquartered in Newport? A regular commanding officer, an adjutant, a regular sergeant-major and everyone in the regiment seems to believe that regulars providing command and leadership are important to a strong Territorial regiment. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

Liam Fox: Anything we can do to improve the quality of those serving in this country's name should be looked at favourably and I am sure that the Secretary of State and Ministers were listening to the hon. Gentleman with the same interest that I was. If we can get a greater interface between the regulars and the reservists, and if it improves the quality of the troops we send into action, it should be welcomed.

James Gray: Just to counter that point slightly, some regiments are commanded by Territorial officers and they are absolutely first class. My own regiment, the Honourable Artillery Company, is a case in point. We should not let lie the idea that that regular commanders are necessarily better, although they may be in some cases.

Liam Fox: I bow to my hon. Friend's experience. It is fair to have a score draw and say that there is superb leadership in both the reserves and the regulars, which is something that the House can be generally proud of.
	An inevitable consequence of the trends that I set out on recruitment and our increased commitment is the problem of morale. Premature voluntary outflow is inexorably rising, particularly in the RAF. Recent surveys in the Army have revealed problems with morale, showing that 47 per cent. of soldiers and 40 per cent. of officers were thinking of leaving the Army within a year. At the heart of the discontent is the overstretch caused by recruitment and retention problems allied to the high level of commitment.
	The current level of defence expenditure is supposed to provide for, at most, no more than one small-scale operation and two medium-scale operations at any one time. Yet the NAO military readiness report in June 2005 highlighted the fact that the armed forces operated consistently over the planned level of activity during 2002, 2003 and 2004. The NAO highlighted concerns about its impact on the armed forces, saying:
	'The high operational tempo conducted by the Department generates a number of personnel and equipment related risks. These risks include: reduced opportunities for, and levels of, trainingleading to skill fade in processes and techniques not exercised in current or recent operations; potentially negative impacts on recruitment and retention rates... a reduced pool of reserve forces to augment regular personnel and units; the need for additional equipment; and added demands on both equipment and logistic support. The recurring high tempo of operations also places a premium on the Department's ability to identify such risks quickly and to take early mitigation action.
	With regards to the Army, the recommended harmony guideline for intervals between tours is 24 months. That is what the balance, to which the Secretary of State referred, was supposed to be. Yet the Ministry of Defence's annual report for 2004-05 states that the average tour interval for infantry units is 21 months and the average tour interval for Royal Artillery units is 19 months. The report stated that there were specialist troops experiencing significantly worse tour intervals and that certain elements of the Army have tour intervals of less than one year. For example, the Queen's Royal Lancers had only 12 months between a tour of duty in Kosovo and a tour of duty in Iraq. I spoke to soldiers in Iraq last week, who expected a gap of only eight months between their deployment there and subsequent deployment to Afghanistan. That is not acceptable. It is not a reasonable balance and it puts far too much pressure on our armed forces and their families.
	The divorce rate in the armed forces is increasing and concerns are being expressed about the quality of service children's education. I look forward to reading the Defence Committee's report on that issue, to be published at the end of this month, with very great interest.
	There are other welfare issues, which the Secretary of State touched on. Accommodation is still a serious matter for many service families, particularly those serving overseas. The Defence Committee's report of last year, on future capabilities, noted the following:
	We regularly heard about (and were shown) poor accommodation during visits in connection with our Duty of Care inquiry. In some cases, funds for refurbishment or improvement promised at the start of the financial year had subsequently been withdrawn. Although the primary focus should be on operational needs, we should not lose sight of the drip down effect that poor accommodation will have on morale, state of training and discipline, and hence operational effectiveness. Service accommodation across the defence estate is too frequently of a poor standard.
	Those concerns were borne out by a reply to a written question tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper), which showed that a quarter of service properties in Cyprus and half those in Gibraltar were classified as grade 4that is, the worst possible.
	There are also shortages in the medical services. The worst shortfalls in the strengths of the Army's various corps were all in the medical sphere. As at 1 December 2005, the Royal Army Medical Corps was 86 per cent. under strength, the Royal Army Dental Corps was 89 per cent. under strength, and Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps was 78 per cent. under strength. There are problems with medical reservists getting the experience that they require, and overstretch and undermanning are depriving them of the training time needed to acquire skills pre-deployment.
	Let me, for the sake of balance, say this about the medical services. When our servicemen and women are injured in Iraq, for example, they get the very best possible medical care. I visited the field hospital at Shaiba logistics base last week, and it reminded me, for the very first time, why I practised medicine. The quality of medical care there, which is patient-focused anddare I say it?not target or administration-focused, is one that most doctors in this country would love to return to. I was deeply impressed by the ratio of staff, and by the quality of care provided in what is a very difficult environment. There is also far better access to investigative procedures than we might get as NHS patients. It is also worth pointing out that the base has not had a single case of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus.

Des Browne: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because I merely want to take this opportunity to associate myself entirely with what he has just said about the hospital facilities at the Shaiba logistics base. I visited it just weeks before he did and was very impressed by the quality not just of the infrastructure, but, principally, of the people there and their dedication to the job.

Liam Fox: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that intervention. While I was there, I had a Newsnight camera with me, and, given that we have reached a point of agreement, I should perhaps take this opportunity to point out that it would be nice if Newsnight showed some of the good things that are happening in Iraq, and not simply the bad.
	War wounds may be obvious from the moment of arrival at a field hospital, but illnesses such as post-traumatic stress disorder might arise years later, in response to some unknown trigger. Indeed, it should be realised by the wider world that PTSD is not the only form of mental illness that the ex-service community faces. They are like any other part of the population: one in five of them will suffer from some sort of mental illness during their lives.
	The health and social care advisory council has already stated that it believes that the NHS is unable to deal with the military population's mental health needs. One in 10 of those aero-evacuated from Iraq were brought out because of a mental health problem. Some 1,300 who served in Iraq between January 2003 and September 2005 have been identified as having a mental health problem. But what about those who suffer in obscurity? As Combat Stress's most recent annual report states, it takes an average of 14 years post-discharge for an individual in need of help to approach that organisation; only one in 10 are referred by a doctor. Many would have been helped by early intervention, but all too many have already reached the end of the road before they seek the help that they need.
	For all those reasons, it astounds me that, when it comes to considering compensatory pensions for those injured on active service, a serious disabling mental health condition is treated no differently financially from the loss of part of one limb. Yet the impact on an individual's ability to work and to continue with their normal life is strikingly different. I urge Ministers to examine the issues of compensation and mental health in the armed forces as a matter of urgency.

Brooks Newmark: rose

Mark Pritchard: rose

Liam Fox: I am spoilt for choice. I give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr. Newmark).

Brooks Newmark: Does my hon. Friend realise that the knock-on effect of this lack of psychiatric care is that 20 to 25 per cent. of homeless people on the streets of London are people who were in the armed forces?

Liam Fox: I have made the point that the level of mental health care for those in the armed forces needs to be looked at. What my hon. Friend describes is a wider problem. Mental health is the Cinderella service in health care provision, and Members in all parts of the House need to find a way to raise its importance as an issue. The quality of care that we provide to those with a mental illness is one way that we can measure how civilised we are as a society, and I am afraid that we fail rather badly in that regard.

Mark Pritchard: Does my hon. Friend agree with the Combat Stress facility in Newport, Shropshire, which suggests that without early intervention in cases of post-traumatic stress, it develops into post-traumatic stress disorder, which can last for many years? There is evidence in Shropshire to support that point of view. There are people in the Audley Court facility who served in the Falkland Islands who are still suffering from PTSD.

Liam Fox: My hon. Friend makes an important point that I should like to augment. One reason why we have poor mental health outcomes in this country is that there tends to be late presentation of a whole range of mental health problems. One reason for late presentation is that a hugely out-of-date stigma is still attached to mental illness. That is a societal question that we need to tackle. We need to ensure that we not only have the necessary facilities, but that people are not afraid to admit that they have such an illness, and that they therefore seek help at an appropriate time. That would improve outcomes, which have been unacceptable for many years, if not centuries.
	Last week, I had the honour of visiting some of our troops in Basra. Having had that experience, I am happy to say that the attitude of our forces serving there is still extremely positive. It can never be said often enough what a superb job they are doing in such difficult conditions. Indeed, as I said earlier, it would do no harm for the media occasionally to refer to the good news emanating from Basra, rather than referring unremittingly to the bad. In particular, it was a source of huge irritation to many of our servicemen and women that nothing was ever reported about the work that they are doing to improve the sewerage and electricity infrastructure, along with all the other good work that is being undertaken.
	Our media should understand that if, in reporting only bad news, they cause a drop in the morale of not only our servicemen and women but their families, their anti-war agenda could risk affecting events, rather than simply reporting them. The Secretary of State reiterated earlier the point that I made the other day about Members of this House having to worry about the language that we use in discussing conflicts. Similarly, the media have a duty to report not only the bad things, but the good things that our troops are doing for the people of Iraq in respect of reconstruction and the security improvements that are being brought about in many parts of that country. That said, we all accept that the picture is still very mixed.

John Robertson: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the media are trying to create the stories, rather than reporting them?

Liam Fox: There is a real risk that, in trying to feed the 24-hour news cycle, truth is the first casualty. That is probably truer of the media now than it was before, given the appetite for news. If there is to be reporting, it should be balanced. Of course there are casualties and fatalities and dangers for our troops, but good things are also happening on the ground.
	The morale of our troops is generally good. The Secretary of State mentioned the possible problems with morale if we under-deploy our forces, because our soldiers want to soldierthat is what they have been trained for. Getting the balance right is difficult. Our soldiers work in terrible conditions. I was out on a patrol in 50 C in body armour, in a Snatch Land Rover without air conditioning, and it was a horrendous way to do any job. Yet our troops do it with professionalism and, almost, without complaint. Standing here in an air-conditioned House of Commons, we would do well to remember the terrible physical conditions in which soldiers sometimes have to carry out the work that has been given to them. They live with the risk of improvised explosive devicesIEDsand explosively formed projectiles, and problems continue with inter-Shi'a militia violence and Sunni-Shi'a violence in Basra. Inevitably, we sustain casualties, but, as I said earlier, at least we have the best medical care for our forces, and we should pay tribute to the medical staff who provide it.
	We should also, now and again, consider the upside of the interaction with the Iraqis. There is no doubt that it is not entirely a happy picture. One serviceman who had been on several deployments to Iraq told me that the relationship with the Iraqi people had gone from welcome to consent to tolerance. It is a difficult trend, but when I was out with our troops in a market town, in soft hats despite the fact that there had been previous mortar attacks on them, there was a reservoir of appreciation from ordinary Iraqi people, who understood that the troops were there for their benefit. To me, it was a source of great pride that, notwithstanding the risk, our troops were willing to go out in soft hats, because they understood that the battle for hearts and minds was an important part of what was happening.
	We are contributing to future security with the improvements in training for the Iraqi army, which has come on in leaps and bounds and is now taking on increasing duties in the maintenance of security. However, the Iraqi police force is still unable to assist in the way that we would like and that increases the security risk to our troops. I hope that the appointment of the Iraqi Prime Minister's security co-ordinator in Basra will improve the outlook, reduce the level of Shi'a militia violence and enable our troops to continue the work that they are doing so bravely in an improved security environment.
	On our second major deployment, in Afghanistan, I make no apologies for repeating what I said earlier this week. We cannot afford to fail in Afghanistan. That we is not the United Kingdom, but the international community. If we fail in Afghanistan, NATO's reputation and cohesion are on the line. It will be almost impossible for us to get those who are reluctant to take part in the reconstruction mission to operate in the area again if we fail in Afghanistan. It would embolden our enemies and increase the risk of terrorist attacks in the UK and the rest of Europe. If we fail, we will betray the Afghan people, to whom we promised so much, and to whom a stable and secure state means everything.
	The price of succeeding in Afghanistan will be high. It may be higher than many of us thought at the outset. But the price of failure would be intolerable. If we do not confront al-Qaeda and the forces of terror at the Afghan-Pakistan border, there is an increased risk that we will have to confront them at home. Those who think that there is an easy solution in disengaging from what is happening in Afghanistan do not understand the full security implications for their constituents if we fail to deal with the problems that we face there.
	The Government have two dutiesto maximise the chance of success of the mission and to minimise the risk to our troops. It is true that the security situation is not what we intended or expected. The initial belief was that Operation Enduring Freedom would entail a reduction in terrorist activity and allow the NATO mission for reconstruction to be conducted in a more secure environment. Instead, we have recently seen an increase in terrorist activity. All missions need to be re-examined constantly. It is not whether we carry out the mission, but how it is undertaken that needs to be reviewed. There are 30-odd countries taking part in the NATO mission, but there are more than 70 caveats that limit what they can achieve.
	Some NATO countries have made very small contributions. The Secretary of State said that many of them could do tasks that we could not do and that we could all play a part, but the actual numbers being deployed are interesting. The UK has sent 5,700, Austria four, Denmark 106, Ireland seven, Luxembourg 10, Poland three, Portugal 166 and Switzerland four. It does not seem to me that all those countries are pulling their weight equally. Some countries are there in considerable numbers, such as Canada with 2,300 and Italy with more than 2,000, but the burden of the mission is not being shouldered equally by all those who are supposed to be taking part.
	We also now face a potential substantial reduction in US troops. I hope that the Minister of State, when he winds up, will say whether we are considering an early merger of Operation Enduring Freedom and the international security assistance force mission as the best way to achieve what we want to do in conditions of the best possible security. Are we asking all that we should of our NATO partners? They need to understand the stakes and make a full commitment, including sending combat troops if required. The Defence Committee has said:
	We are concerned that, should the security situation in the South prove worse than anticipated, the UK will be called on to provide additional forces. The UK has already committed significant numbers of troops and assets to IASF stage 3. NATO should call on the military assets of other countries before approaching the UK for further contributions.
	There needs to be a proper balance in what we are all doing in the Afghan mission.
	We are all rightly proud of all our armed forces, their courage, dedication and professionalism. But we will have to decide whether to increase our resources to match our commitments, or reduce our commitments to match our resources. We cannot continue indefinitely with the level of overstretch that we now have. The quality and morale of our forces are at risk. Government, Parliament and the country as a whole need to decide what our priorities really are. We can either shape the future or be shaped by it. I hope that our history and experience will convince us that opting out is not the route to peace and security in the future.

Don Touhig: I welcome this wide-ranging debate, which focuses on the men and women serving in our armed forces. Like many hon. Members on both sides of the House, I am filled with admiration for those who serve our country in the most difficult and dangerous places. As we have seen in recent days, some pay the ultimate price for their service to our country and to freedom.
	I take the view that we should do everything possible to demonstrate how much we value our servicemen and women. I was delighted, therefore, that on 16 May the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson), demonstrated the Government's continued commitment to the welfare of our servicemen and women during their service and beyond. We have a continuing duty of care to our ex-servicemen and women as much as we do to those still serving. My hon. Friend's statement gave details of the research programme carried out by King's College on the health and wellbeing of personnel who served in the Gulf war and in Operation Telic. I am also pleased that the comprehensive physical and mental health care service already offered to mobilised reservists will be extended and enhanced to provide post-operational mental health care for recently demobilised reservists. As a result of the initiative, any reservist demobilised since January 2003 who has concerns about mental health will be able to get assessment and support. That is to be welcomed, and I pay particular tribute to the work of Defence Medical Services in that regard. I hope that the MOD will continue to look at the possibility of providing the same ongoing care to recently demobilised regulars as well as reservists.
	We have already heard in this debate about many of the issues affecting the armed forces, and I am sure that other hon. Members will add to the list in their contributions. However, I want to concentrate on one or two key areas, and especially on matters relating to veterans.
	Last year's veterans awareness week was a great success, and led to us holding veterans day on 27 June this year, with events all over the country. I hope that the process will continue and that each year the British people will find new and innovative ways to celebrate the contribution that veterans make to our society.
	The veterans badge has proved immensely popular, and is now being awarded to those who served in the Suez conflict. Only the other day, I presented veterans badges to members of the south Wales branch of the Royal British Legion, and I saw the great pride that they and their families displayed on receiving and wearing them.
	The badge was not my initiative, but as a Minister I shared in the glory. I received a great many letters that said that the badge was a wonderful idea. People appreciate and value it greatly, and more than 250,000 have been awarded. It is a unique way for the country to show its appreciation for our veterans, and to thank them.
	It is important that we celebrate and raise awareness of the achievements and contributions of our veterans, both at home and abroad, but we can do more. I want to refer to one matter in particular this afternoon.
	It was heartening to see that the contribution of our veterans is being recognised abroad, with the award of the Pinjat Jasa medal by the Malaysian Government. I welcome the decision by Her Majesty the Queen to grant permission for the 35,000 veterans who took part in operations in Malaya to receive the PJM, but I am concerned that they have not been granted permission to wear it. In a written statement on 31 January, the then Minister for Trade, my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, South (Ian Pearson), who is now Minister for Climate Change and the Environment, said:
	The Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals...has recommended...an exception to two of the long-established rules governing the accepting and wearing of foreign...awards to enable the Malaysian Government to present the PJM.
	However, the statement went on to say that permission to wear the PJM was not given because:
	It is long standing Government policy that non-British medals will not be approved for events or service:
	that took place more than five years before initial consideration, or in connection with events that took place in the distant past,
	or
	if the recipient has received a British award for the same service.[ Official Report, 31 January 2006; Vol. 442, c. 10-11WS.]
	The decision to forgo the double-medalling and five-year rules so that the PJM could be awarded in the first place, but then to use the same rules to deny veterans the opportunity to wear it, is both confusing and mystifying. Most people would think that fairness and common sense dictate that our veterans, having been given permission to accept the PJM, should be allowed to wear it. However, my mother used to say to me when I was growing up, Son, you will find out in life that sense is not that common. I think that that is true in respect of the PJM.
	Further complicating the decision is the fact that the Commonwealth Governments in Australia and New Zealand have advised Her Majesty the Queen to grant unrestricted use of the PJM and allow their veterans to accept and wear the medal on all occasions. The ethos behind the first veterans day was to thank all the veterans who had served in our armed forces. In presenting the PJM, the Malaysian Government are thanking the 35,000 veterans who served in operations in that country. It seems decidedly odd that, although we in this country thank our veterans for their service and celebrate their achievements, veterans of the Malaysian operations are unable to wear the PJM. It is for that reason that I fully support the campaign to enable those who served in Malaya to wear the medal. I know that the veterans have petitioned Her Majesty the Queen on the matter, although she is not to be blamed for the decision. In our constitutional monarchy, the sovereign acts on the advice of Ministers and othersin this case the honours committee.
	I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, who has responsibility for veterans, will be their champion. I know that he is determined to be, but I hope that he will press those who advise the Queen to review the situation. I should be grateful if he said that he was prepared to do so.
	Veterans day is a time for celebration, but it also highlights the support and advice available to veterans from official and voluntary sources, in particular the role played by the ex-service organisations. I am pleased that the MOD has completed its review of its veterans strategy, which was launched in March 2003.
	The strategy seeks to provide excellent preparation for the transition of service personnel back into civilian life. It offers advice and support to veterans who need that, and ensures that we as a nation recognise and understand the contributions to our society that our veterans have made. It also gives the MOD the opportunity to work more closely with a host of veterans organisations, such as the Royal British Legion and Combat Stress.
	All the organisations involved have a fine record of serving our veterans, but the MOD could do more to help. In March, when I was still a Minister, I launched a pilot advertising campaign to promote the Veterans Agency freephone helpline0800 169 2277. I believe that the agency does a fantastic job in advising veterans on many matters, but I was told that day that veterans are often unaware of the excellent service offered by the helpline. I hope that the MOD will take heed of that, and roll out an advertising campaign across the country, so that the Veterans Agency becomes as well known as the BBC, ITV or any of this country's great institutions and organisations.
	It has often been said that our treatment of veterans has a major impact on our ability to recruit in the future, and that has been touched on in the debate already. To maintain operational capability, the British armed forces need to attract new recruits each year. There are fewer military establishments now, and families have little or no experience of national service. That makes it difficult for young people to identify the armed forces as a career option.
	The cadet forces give young people an excellent introduction to service life and help them to build confidence and self-esteem, providing an excellent fit and support for our country's wider respect agenda. I pay tribute to the cadets, and their instructors, for the fantastic job that they do.
	On 27 June, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State announced that funding would be provided for a pilot scheme that introduces new combined cadet forces in six state schools. The scheme lasts for three years, and I hope that it will be such a success that more secondary schools across the country will want to participate.
	When I was a Minister, I had the honour to meet the entire service familyfrom cadets to reservists, and from serving personnel and their families to veterans. I never ceased to be amazed at their fortitude, resilience and, above all, their humour in the most difficult circumstances.
	I well remember 7/7. As part of veterans awareness week, I was due to go to St. James's park to meet RAF prisoners of war. I wondered how many would get there, but my God lots of them certainly managed it. I talked to one couple: the man was in a wheelchair, and his wife had pushed him from a hotel in west London. There was no public transport, but they were determined to be present. Another chap in his 80s said that he had got to Victoria station that morning to find that there were no buses or taxis. He said, They locked me up in Germany for four years but that didn't stop me, so the terrorists won't either. That shows the determination of a generation to whom we owe a tremendous debt.
	This country does well when it comes to recognising and supporting our veterans, but we can do much more. I am sure that the aspiration and determination to continue to honour this country's veterans is shared on both sides of the House. As I said to some school children recently, If you value freedom, thank a veteran. We owe them a huge debt.

Bob Russell: I congratulate the hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) not only on what he said today but on his time as a Minister. I thank him for his support for the armed forces and for his responses to issues that I raised with him.
	It is a special honour and privilege to be a Member of Parliament for a garrison town. Although my tributes today are given generally to all sectors of Her Majesty's armed forces both at home and overseas, I hope I shall be forgiven if I make special mention of those from the Colchester garrison. Many of them are currently serving in Afghanistan, and although we still await details of the soldier who was killed yesterday we know that he was a member of 3rd Para battle group and the sixth person to have lost his life over the past three or four weeks. I fear that he is a member of 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment.
	Last month, the Prime Minister paid tribute to an officer from 3rd Para who had been killed in Afghanistan and the whole House joined in those tributes, as indeed we have for others who have died in Afghanistan and Iraq. The week before that officer was killed, I attended a memorial service at the garrison church in Colchester for two members of 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment who had been killed in Iraq. Troops from Colchester have served in both those conflicts and lives have been lost. I pay tribute to them and to the wider Army family.
	As the Secretary of State said in his speech, members of Her Majesty's armed forces are operating in 15 countries, of which twoAfghanistan and Iraqare in the headlines. I will try not to move too far into operational matters because the debate is about armed forces personnel, so I shall try to concentrate my remarks on retention and recruitment and getting a fair, or fairer, deal for the armed forces.
	I draw the attention of the House to the answer to a parliamentary question I tabled last month. Between 9 and 10 per cent. of the British Army are not British citizens. Citizens of 57 countries currently serve in the British Army. Alphabetically, they range from 75 Australians to 565 Zimbabweans. There are 1,995 soldiers from Fiji, 660 from Ghana, 975 from Jamaica, 720 from South Africa, 225 from St. Lucia and 280 from St. Vincent.
	I want to mention especially the island of St. Helena, population 4,000, which has 20 soldiers in the British Army. It provides our Army with more people per head of population than any other part of the world. I draw attention to early-day motion 2403, because next year is the 25th anniversary of the Falklands war. Citizens of St Helena have been denied the award of the south Atlantic medal, even though the island is in the south Atlantic and its citizens volunteered to support the British Government in the recovery of the Falklands islands. They served on RMS St. Helena, but because the vessel was not inside the exclusion zone long enough, they did not qualify for the medal for operational reasons. I hope that the Government, perhaps through the medals committee, can find a way to rectify that slight. Those people volunteered when this country called on them to serve Queen and country; the least we can do is award them the medal to which most fair-minded people would think they were entitled.
	The defence White Paper proposed key changes to cope with this country's commitments at home and overseas, which then predated Iraq and Afghanistan. Since the White Paper, there have been reductions in manpower requirements, recruitment and retention difficulties and increased demands on our armed forces. Those are challenges, to put it kindly. Some of us refer to overstretch and some to additional commitments, but the MOD should look again at the White Paper in the light of what has happened since it was published.
	The size of the Army was deliberately reduced, but full recruitment has still not been achieved, despite that reduction. There have also been reductions in the personnel of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. In the light of current commitments and developments, we need to consider whether the size of Her Majesty's armed forces is sufficient for today's demands.
	Recruitment from civilian life to UK regular forces has dropped substantially. As I indicated, between 9 and 10 per cent. of the British Army is not British. Constituents serving in the Army have told me that they would like to be British. I am thinking particularly of a Fijian solider who is proud to serve in the British Armybut, as he says, he would be even prouder if he could be British in the British Army. However, he cannot apply to become a British citizen without first leaving the Army. I appreciate that the issue is not for the MOD to resolve, but I hope that in a spirit of joined-up government other arms of the Government will find a way to enable people who are prepared to risk their lives for this country to become British citizens.
	We need to look at retention and recruitment in equal measure. With that in mind, I was interested to hear about the housing issues raised by Opposition Front Benchers. Many of us recall that part of the root cause of the housing problem for married personnel was the sale by the last Government of family housing to Annington Homes at a ridiculously low price. Last year, for example, Annington sold 40 family houses, which previously belonged to the MOD, at a gross profit per dwelling of 100,000a gross profit of 4 million. The company owns hundreds of similar homes and has demolished former MOD houses to create building sites on which it has built new houses. It is making a financial killing.
	There is a case for the National Audit Office, or for the Select Committee on Defence or somebody in the Government or Government agencies, to look again at that privatisation and its consequences, because while Annington Homes was selling off allegedly surplus properties, the MODas was confirmed in a written answer last weekis renting between 50 and 60 family houses from the private sector in a town where there is a housing crisis. It is extraordinary that empty Army houses are being sold by their private owner, Annington Homes, which is making a financial killing, while the MOD is having to rent houses from the private sector because it does not have enough accommodation in a town with a housing crisis. That shows a lack of joined-up thinking.
	The Minister has confirmed that there is much to be done to improve the quality of the housing stock for married families. I am delighted, however, by the assurance that the new Colchester garrison will have sufficient single persons' accommodation. I hope that that turns out to be true, and I look forward to the release of the other private rented houses to the public sector, so that the 50 families in the private sector will be housed.
	Council tax is another issue that, if dealt with, would help to create a climate in which we respect soldiers and encourage them to remain in the Army. While they reside in this country, we would expect them to pay council tax, but it is absurd that, when they are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, they are still required to pay council tax. A private citizen who is sent to prison is exempt from council tax, yet we expect soldiers sent to Afghanistan and Iraq to pay council tax.
	Many children of military personnel attend schools that are predominantly occupied by the children of service families. I am advised that the figure can be as high as 100 per cent. in some parts of the country. Although the percentages for the five schools in the Colchester garrison area are anything up to 80 or 85 per cent, they do not quite hit 100 per cent. Detailed surveys have been carried out into the associated turbulence factor.
	I am delighted that the Defence Committee is reviewing defence schools. Although those schools are the responsibility of the local education authority, they are predominantly filled by the children of military personnel. Again, to return to the concept of joined-up government, although the Ministry of Defence has very good education support peopleI pay tribute to themI feel that it and the Department for Education and Skills need to take due note that factors exist in schools attended by large numbers of children from service families that do not exist in other state schools.
	I am reminded that the then Secretary of State for Education and Skills, the right hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke), visited Colchester a couple of years ago and assured the chairmen and head teachers of the Army schools there that additional funding would be provided. They are still waiting for the cheque. It has not materialised. That is of considerable concern.
	Like all three right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken so far, I pay tribute to the welfare and support services provided to military families and individual soldiers. Whether those services come from the Ministry of Defence itself or the voluntary sector, I am always impressed by the fantastic support that our military personnel receive from the family support groups and everyone else. It is quite remarkable, particularly at times of conflict when the whole community seems to rally round and provide support.
	I also pay tribute to the civilian work force. However, the Government's enthusiasm for privatising and outsourcing does not give much encouragement that the MOD understands the importance of loyalty to the work force. I urge the Minister to reflect on whether the MOD's policy of continuing to go down the privatisation and outsourcing route is necessarily the right one.
	Shortages in covering certain tradesthe Royal Engineers, the Royal Signals, the Intelligence Corps and the Army medical serviceshave been alluded to. In the case of the Army medical services, I am sure that the Minister will observe that there is a continued inheritance from decisions made upwards of 10 years ago. Nevertheless, the shortages have yet to be addressed. I should like to put it on record that we recognise that men and women who are deployed, particularly overseas, deserve the highest quality of medical care that our country can provide. That care is provided by the doctors and others in Defence Medical Services and reserve services, and it is right that we mention the reserve forces, because we rely as much on the volunteers and TA support as we do on full-time military medical people.
	Unfortunately, to date, the announcement of this year's pay award for armed forces doctors is still awaited. I understand that, over the past year, the British Medical Association's armed forces committee has worked closely with the Defence Medical Services directorate to provide matching evidence to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. That evidence was based on hard data comparing what can be earned by consultants in the NHS and by their military counterparts.
	I understand that a 6.6 per cent. uplift in pay for armed forces doctors is required in addition to the Doctors and Dentists Review Body pay award of 2.2 per cent. to help to close the significant gap between the NHS and earnings in Defence Medical Services. There are fears that, unless the pay scales are brought closer together, many of those doctors, who are the military's deployable medical experts, will resign from the armed forces to go into significantly better paid NHS posts, where they will not suffer from the added turbulence of repeated deployments. Military reservists who are ordinary consultants and general practitioners give up a substantial amount of time and, in some cases, earnings to serve their country, and their contribution to operations is crucial. I hope that that aspect will be dealt with.
	I am aware that many other hon. Members wish to participate in the debate, and I shall conclude by saying that, although we all value our armed forces, the Government need to look again at whether the reduction in numbers in the Army, Air Force and Navy is correct in the light of new commitments and new risks around the world. The Government should consider whether those numbers should be increased, alongside the need to keep on the pressure in respect of some of the aspects that I have mentioned, so that married personnel feel more comfortable in remaining with Her Majesty's armed forces, rather than leaving them, and we all have a part to play in recruitment.
	I certainly take on board the point that, because of contractions, the footprint of the armed forces in the United Kingdom is getting smaller and smaller. Although garrison towns such as Colchester are seeing a growth in the Territorial Army, there are many parts of the country where the TA no longer exists. Perhaps for wider public consumption we need to have more military outposts in the United Kingdom so that people can more readily identify with the armed forces.

John Robertson: First, I would like to associate myself with the condolences expressed to the families and friends of the young solider who was killed yesterday, and to those of all our servicemen and women who have died over the decades to keep this country in freedom, to preserve free speech and to help us to have the standard of living that we have today. They have more than fulfilled their need to defend their country and should be recognised as having done so.
	I also congratulate the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox). It is seldom that we hear an Opposition Front-Bench spokesman who has obviously looked at his portfolio and who conducts himself in a proper manner to defend not only this House but the party that he represents. His conduct in mentioning our armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan was exemplary. It is a pleasure to follow him.
	I would like to start by talking about our veterans, following the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig), who eloquently explained why our veterans have done such a good job and why they should be recognised by this country. I thank my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for coming to my constituency, where 220 veterans, plus families and friends, turned up for an event during veterans week. He was our honoured guest speaker. I also thank BAE Systems, which I will mention again later, which helped to sponsor the event. In particular, I want to mention the cadets from the Royal Navy, the Army and the Air Force who turned up and looked after my veterans so ably. I think that they got more than a little enjoyment from listening to the stories that they were told about the escapades of some of the gentlemen and ladies during the second world war. They had an excellent day, as did the veterans. I have gratefully received a number of letters thanking me for the day. We had a good sing-song and went over all the songs of the war dayssome of which I did not know. It was an excellent day and it was a good way to recognise those who had put their lives in harm's way to protect those of us who were born after the war.
	Earlier this week, when people once again raised the subject of an extra bank holiday, I thought to myself, We have recognised veterans. We had veterans week last year and veterans day just the other week. If colleagues and friends want an extra bank holiday, rather than make it a nationalist type of day, why don't we have a day off to celebrate those who put their lives on the line for their country? Let us have a veterans day when we can properly recognise and celebrate what those people did for the country. That would be a much better way of showing support and would mean that we had a day off when we could remember members of our own families who put their lives on the line and died. That would be much better than having a bank holiday for St. Andrew's day, St. George's day or St. David's day. That would be a much better way of making it a national day.
	That brings me on to another subject relating to our armed forces personnel who lay down their lives. It does not matter what country they come from. Whether they come from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England, it does not matter one jot. They are not second-class soldiers. I believe that we in this House should not be second class either. We have just as much right to defend those people in the House as they have to defend us. I deplore people's attitude in trying to downgrade Members of this House.
	I will move on to talk about the important matter of equipment for our armed forces. It will not surprise my right hon. Friend the Minister that I wish to talk about shipbuilding and, in particular, the Navy. I thank him once again for the work that he, his Department and others did to achieve the orders for the Type 45s, which are being built in my constituency as I speak. However, there is a question mark over the building of the seventh and eighth Type 45s.
	Let me give hon. Members a little more insight into the Type 45s. They will defend the two new carriers that we are about to build. My informants in the Royal Navy tell me that four Type 45s are needed to defend a carrier because the Type 45s corner the carrier to cover the area all round it. As we are to have two carriers, it suggests that we will need eight Type 45s to do the job, so will my right hon. Friend tell me what is happening with Nos. 7 and 8? Our servicemen and women serving on ships deserve the best protection that they can have, so if the Royal Navy is correct and it needs those ships, I hope that my right hon. Friend will come forth with something that will make me and other hon. Members feel a lot better.

Julian Lewis: I warmly endorse everything that the hon. Gentleman has said. To set his point in context, would he like to remind the House that there were originally supposed to have been 12 Type 45s in the programme?

John Robertson: I had not forgotten that, but I was trying to be party conscious and help my right hon. Friend the Minister. However, it would be nice if we got the other four as well, especially because at the moment the Scotstoun yard, which is the larger of the two yards on the Clyde, seems to be sending most of its workers over to Govan, which is where the steel cutting is done, because that is where most of the work is taking place at present. It is only once the fitting starts that we will get the work back in my constituency. I am sure that the local hostelries and shops will be happy when the fitting work starts to appear on the Clyde, which I am told will happen by the end of the year.
	We have been especially quiet about the military afloat reach and sustainability project. We need either several new ships, or to upgrade or renovate a number of ships, so will my right hon. Friend the Minister give us an update on what is happening? The project is especially important to some of our smaller yards, such as Ferguson's in Port Glasgow, which is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire, North (Jim Sheridan). The yard is desperate for orders, and some of the smaller ships covered by the MARS project would be ideal for it.
	We must ensure that Afghanistan and Iraq have security forces who are equipped and trained for the job in hand. Will my right hon. Friend the Minister give me an update on what is happening with the training of security forces in Iraq and Afghanistan? I read somewhere that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had said that he expected that over the next 12 to 18 months, the democratically-elected Iraqi Government and their security forces might take responsibility for security. May I deduce from that that the start of the withdrawal of our troops could coincide with that time period? I will be interested to hear whether that is on the agenda. I appreciate that, for security reasons, one does not tell one's enemy when one's troops are being withdrawn, but as the local Iraqi troops grow to sufficient numbers, I would expect the number of our troops to decrease, albeit not necessarily by the same extent.
	May I raise a subject that I have raised in the debate on pensions for armed forces personnel and in other defence debates? My participation in the armed forces parliamentary scheme brought me into close contact with members of the armed forces and their lifestyle, so I was particularly pleased to hear from the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) that the morale of our troops is high. From reading media reports, however, one would think that they were holding their heads, a handkerchief in their hand, wondering what was going to happen to them. One would not think that their morale was high, they were doing a good job, or were successfully training the Iraqi security forces. It is important that we congratulate them on doing such a good job, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Woodspring on saying so. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has alluded to the subject, but it is unusual for the shadow Secretary of State to agree with him. It would be useful if we remembered that agreement in other debates, as it is important to give credit where credit is due.
	A couple of years ago, we discussed the issue of soldiers who leave the armed forces, and it was drawn to my attention that 10 per cent. of soldiers who leave the services fail to find a job and are unemployed. I thought that it was deplorable that people who had served the nation could not find a job, and were not given extra help to do so. Can my right hon. Friend the Minister of State say whether the figure is still 10 per cent., or whether it is lower or higher? What extra things have been done in the past few years to ensure that our servicemen are assisted in their return to civil society? What has been done to ensure that they find a job and are helped to find accommodation and to return to the area where they came from?
	I have made a number of points that my right hon. Friend probably did not expect me to make, but I hope that I have provided the House with food for thought. I congratulate the Government on providing us with an opportunity to debate this important issue, but I wish that it could have been debated when many more Members were in the House. I see that, once again, the nationalists are missing. That is not unusualthey miss many important debatesbut I should like their absence to be put on the record. Although they are the first to mount campaigns, particularly in Scotland, on regiments, the closure of airfields and so on, they could not even be bothered to turn up to our debate.

Nicholas Soames: May I warmly endorse the points made by the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson), with whom I entirely agree? I am conscious that the subject of our debate is personnel, but I should like to say something later about Afghanistan and Iraq. However, in the spirit of our debate, I endorse the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), who spoke with great conviction and clarity, both today and after Monday's statement. I welcome, too, the Secretary of State's contribution. I am sorry that he is not here, because I wanted to tell him that I was robust about his absence from the House earlier this week. I have nothing personal against himin fact, I like him very muchbut I think that absence from the Chamber during a statement is disrespectful to the House of Commons and extremely disrespectful to the armed forces. If one is within striking distance of the House, one should attend. I believe the Secretary of State should have been present, although his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State made a very good fist of it in his place. I wanted to explain why I expressed myself in the manner that I did.
	I start from first principles. The armed services exist to engage in war, to fight to achieve an end and to triumph over adversaries who will seek to exploit any weaknesses, particularly in our people's will to win. It is that function which distinguishes them fundamentally from all othersfrom society in general, from large businesses and from any other public body. The armed forces must be prepared to engage in battle where the consequences of winning or losing are profound to the nation and to the individual. That is ultimately what society pays them to do and what society expects from them.
	In the light of that, I express my wholehearted sorrow, as have many on both sides of the House, at the loss of another brave British soldier. I do so to his family and friends with all my heart. I pay a profound tribute to our armed forcesthe men and women of the Army, the Navy and the Air Forceand, as my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring and the Secretary of State did, to their families, who have to put up with a great deal and who, by keeping the home fires burning, do so much more than is ever appreciated. I also pay a particular tribute to the men and women of the reserve forces, almost 14,500 of whom have served in Iraq with the greatest distinction.
	I welcome the announcement by Lord Drayson about the intention to merge parts of the Defence Logistics Organisation and the Defence Procurement Agency. That was part of the Conservative programme at the last election, it is what we would have done, had we come to power, and it is the right thing to do. As the Secretary of State said, it is not being done for fun. It is part of the process of improving the delivery of the most important equipment to servicemen and women in the field. I am clear that that is the right way to proceed with a currently unsatisfactory bureaucracy.
	I am extremely anxious to hear that the MOD has been warned by the Treasury to expect a cut of more than 1 billion in the defence budget. Even by the standards of the Treasury's baleful and contemptible record on defence, that is a cardinal act of folly and it says nothing for the Chancellor's worthless assurances given at the Mansion house about supporting our armed forces at home and abroad.
	There is a view that the Government take the armed forces for granted. I do not accuse the Minister of State for the armed forces of that in the least, but generally the armed forces are taken for granted. It is not possible for the Government to go on saying how much they value our armed forces, when at the same time they are being starved of financial resources to enable them to carry out the commitments laid upon them by the Government. It was always taken as read that the Government would honour their pledge to fund the strategic defence review fully. At the time my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) and others sought and received assurances that the strategic defence review would be fully funded, but that has never been done. The most important warning that I can give the Government is that many servicemen and women whom I talk to feel that they are indeed being taken for granted, and that their quality, efficiency and effectiveness are appreciated only at moments of high drama and crisis. I am afraid to say that there is, indeed, an element of that around. The process started rather well, but under relentless, continuous, baleful pressure from the Treasury, the Government have reverted to underfunding, the consequence of which is that the armed forces need a substantial injection of extra funds over the next few years if they are to carry out their current level of commitments.
	I warn the Minister of State that if undermanning and overstretch continue, things will start to go wrong in the military field, and the Government will not be able to take for granted the almost guaranteed success and effectiveness from the armed forces that we have come to expect. Soldiers, sailors, airmen and their families now recognise that the Government are not matching their personal commitment by way of financial support to the defence budget, which will have to be put right.
	I want to mention some very particular points. I want the Minister, if he would be so kind, to examine with care how we deploy our troops out of this country. The standard of service provided by the Royal Air Force is not nearly good enough. My noble Friend Lord Astor raised the matter in the Lords last week, and I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) has raised it with the Chief of the Air Staff. It is frankly inexcusableI repeat inexcusablethat soldiers going to and from active duty should be treated in such a deplorable and casual manner. There is a form of insanity in the MOD that seems to permit that to happen.
	Why should soldiers, who have been carefully vetted and highly trained and who are on their way to operational duties in extremely dangerous parts of the world, have to turn up at RAF Brize Norton 12 hours before they take off? It is absolutely absurd. How is it possible that young men and women, who, having completed the most arduous tours, may be back on brief periods of leave, should find themselves having to sit around Basra airport, sometimes for several days, in gross conditions and with inadequate facilities when they have a confirmed flight, simply because there is no seat for them? It is unacceptable, and the Minister has it in his power to fix the matter, which is what he needs to do.

Gerald Howarth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning that important point, which I raised with the Chief of the Air Staff when he addressed the all-party Royal Air Force group earlier this week. The Chief of the Air Staff is fully seized of the concerns which my hon. Friend has rightly expressed. I hope that Ministers will give the Royal Air Force the necessary encouragement to bring about the changes that my hon. Friend rightly seeks.

Nicholas Soames: My hon. Friend is right. He knows a great deal about the matter, and I confirmed with him this morning that my comments are correct. The problem is damaging for morale; it is thoughtless and feckless, and the Minister needs to get a grip on it immediately. Attitudes need to be changed, particularly in the Royal Air Force, in the most urgent and profound way, and I have no doubt that my right hon. and hon. Friends want to see a serious improvement.
	I want to turn to the tricky question of service housing, which has been raised by the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell)who is never able to stay after he has spokenand a number of other hon. Members. The Government have made some big improvements to service housing, which I applaud. I have visited Tidworth and think that some of the service accommodation is absolutely marvellous. It is unwise to expect young people to join up and live in the kind of accommodation that was used in the past, so the change is very good.
	In the Lords last week, my noble Friend Lord Luke pointed out that too many British Army families still face housing problems at a time of increasing pressure. The Minister of State and I have wrestled with that intractable problem. My noble Friend quoted appositely from a speaker at the Army Families Federation conference:
	Most families feel passionately about their homes, army families perhaps more than most, since they can sometimes be the only stable thing in their lives. Their husbands or partners might be on operations abroad but their home is their base, the one concrete thing in an otherwise turbulent existence.
	This remains a very important matter in terms of retention and recruitment.

Adam Ingram: The hon. Gentleman knows that I have great respect for him. When he was armed forces Minister, what role did he play in the major sell-off of all those assets, did he resist it, and what did he think would be its legacy, which we inherited and are having to deal with?

Nicholas Soames: As some of my hon. Friends know, I was anxious about that when it happened. We were in a position where we had to do itthere was no alternative in terms of money.  [Interruption.] I am disappointed by the Minister's reaction. I started by saying that I congratulate the Government on what they have achieved in service housing, and I am merely saying that it continues to be a problem. The sell-off to Annington Homes was inevitable, but I suspect that the consequences were not properly thought through. Even though the Government have made a big investment, things are not yet right, and a great deal more needs to be done.

Adam Ingram: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Nicholas Soames: No, I will not, because the right hon. Gentleman chose to ignore the spirit in which I made my remarks, and I am not going to risk it again.
	The Army is too small. The Navy has been desperately ill-served by the Government's mad decision to cut the destroyer force by 20 per cent. a couple of years ago. The frigate is the workhorse of the fleet, and its deployability, reach and endurance is the absolute cornerstone of what I understand to be our defence policy and its expeditionary and global aspirations. The fact is that our force is spread too thinly. How can one ship sensibly manage to patrol the Caribbean, the west coast of Africa and the south Atlantic? The commitment of our joint helicopter operation is stretched almost to breaking point in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am afraid that it all comes down to a shortage of money and not enough kit. That is bad for the fighting effectiveness of the forces, bad for morale, and bad for training. One can only wonder, given the current pressure and intensity of operations, which is likely to continue for the foreseeable future, how tour intervals are to be managed, not only for the teeth arms but for the signals, logistics and medical services.
	It is not well understood in this House that the people of our armed forces live under a very different code of rules and conduct from the rest of us. We heard earlier about the way in which the media report matters relating to defence. The press, barring one or two exceptions, are absolutely clueless about the armed forces. One of the most foolish things that the Government did was to get rid of the services public relations staff at the Ministry of Defence. That broke an invaluable chain of information and knowledge between the forces and a largely ignorant press. The media love to pretend that they are on the side of what they call our brave lads and then take every opportunity to shaft them. Other than the few remaining defence journalists, they have no idea how the armed forces work. That is very disappointing.
	Sadly, few Members of this House take an constant interest in and are knowledgeable about the armed forces; most of them are probably here today. As the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West said, the turnout for this debate on personnel in the armed forces, at a time when our armed forces have never been more committed and, in some places, in greater danger, is lamentable. It is a great pity that more hon. Members are not present. In the wider world, there is tremendous and profound misunderstanding and ignorance because of the reduction in the service footprint and the number of people who have served in the modern armed forces. As that number has contracted and as the geographic footprint has become smaller, there is less attachment to and understanding of what has gone on. That is not good for the armed forces or the country.
	An extraordinarily high standard of personal conduct is required of our armed forcesexceptional respect for the law, teamwork, cohesion, trust and an astonishingly highly developed sense of duty, obligation and integrity. If the Minister has not already done so, I suggest that he read the guide to soldiersThe Values and Standards of the British Army. It should be much more widely distributed. The problem for us all is that those qualities are almost unique to the traditions and institutions of the British armed forces and are increasingly not only not understood by but wholly alien to many of our fellow citizens.
	However, it is encouraging that the comradeship and team spirit, loyalty and patriotismunderstated but devoted patriotismand the emotional, intellectual and moral qualities, which lead those young men to put their lives on the line, are still hugely and widely admired whenever people stop for a moment to think about those matters.
	It is therefore imperative that, despite the Government's baleful politically correct bent, Ministers do not try to drag the armed forces into being a mirror image of the society that they serve. Ministers must be watchful that, for example, the capability and effectiveness of our forces are not seriously undermined by a lot of on-the-make lawyers. The Government will never understand, but although the armed forces have no right to be different, they need to be different. What has happened in the recent past in Iraq and is happening at the moment in Afghanistan is living proof that, for the young servicemen and women of today, the fundamental nature of war, and all that they have to train for, remains unchanged.
	The young men in the 16th Air Assault Brigade, and all those who are supporting them, are taking part in a terrifying contest of wills, which can leadand has ledinevitably to death, terror, bloodshed and destruction. Just as for the truly formidable previous generations of servicemen, combat will continue to represent the ultimate physical and mental challenge.
	The House and the people of this wonderful country should be deeply proud of and grateful to those young men and women, who will encounter a combination of extreme danger in rapidly changing circumstances, amid conditions of chaos and uncertainty. Their skills, the quality of their leadership, their weapons and their equipment are being severely tested.
	Such operations can be sustained and undertaken only by highly trained servicemen, motivated by enormous pride in their traditions and institutions, a depth of comradeship unimaginable to anyone who has never experienced it, an exceptional level of team spirit and, most important, the ethos of their service. Their loyalty and patriotism are magnificent, as are their enduring belief in British values and an unshakeable determination to defend them.
	So let us be clear: even with our armed forces as grotesquely overstretched as they are, nothing should be allowed to interfere with the exceptional quality of training that our troops need and that gives them the confidence to remain as they always have beenunbeaten.
	I do not know how many hon. Members have read the truly wonderful book, Dusty Warriors, by Brigadier Richard Holmes. He was the brigadier in charge of the Territorial Army at the Ministry of Defence, and he is an extremely distinguished military historian. The book is a history of the deployment to Iraq of the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment. It was a rough but extremely distinguished deployment in which the regiment did brilliantly well. One of its young soldiers, Private Beharry, won the Victoria cross. I want to read two brief quotes from the book, because they are germane to a serviceman's life today and to what we ask of those young men. In a debate on armed forces personnel, it is important to say these things.
	Amongst the lessons that will be learnt from Iraq is that at times it was neither a conventional battle between two symmetrical adversaries nor a peace keeping operation, for the very phrase implies that there is a peace to be kept. It was instead a post-modern conflict comprising extreme violence and near normality, formally structured military operations and sheer terrorism, diplomatic negotiations and mafia-style power broking, all intertwined like the skeins of a rope.
	The second quote comes from Colonel Matt Maer, who commanded the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment. I shall quote what he said of the members of his battle group. I think that it is a wonderful thing to say and, my goodness, it shows the extraordinary skill and capabilities of the young men involved.
	Their restraint and compassion in recognition of the dangers and risks of getting it wrong were as equally matched by their willingness to risk their lives and mix it with those who wanted to take us on. At no time did I ever feel nervous that the lethal force entrusted to these young officers and men was being or was even in danger of being abused. It was not unusual for a patrol in Al Amarah to shift from the daily exchange of pleasantries with a shopkeeper or passer by, and within three hundred metres or a moment in time being entwined in mortal combat with a large heavily armed enemy and having to resort to every skill and piece of ordnance available to survive.
	That is an astonishing tribute to the young men of the British Army, who are, in our cause, conducting the most vital operations.
	I come back to the point made by my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State that we cannot afford to get this wrong in Afghanistan, and we absolutely have to make sure that it works. The House needs to realise with great humility how extraordinarily lucky we are in this magnificent country to have such exceptional armed forces. At every level of command in all three servicesand, indeed, throughout all ranksthey are truly formidable in their standards, both personally and professionally. In their teamwork and in their highly developed sense of cohesion, duty and obligation, they are an institution that forms a priceless asset for Great Britain in the pursuit of our aims and interests both at home and abroad. It is of enormous credit to the quality of the services' leadership that, in a period of considerable upheaval, they have retained exceptional flexibility combined with great clarity of purpose and endeavour. They deserve our wholehearted support in every way that we can give it.

Nia Griffith: In this debate on armed forces personnel, it is important that we also remember the civilian personnel, who provide invaluable back-up and without whom we could not expect our front-line troops to operate. I would like to mention in particular the staff at Llangennech, who form part of the defence supply chain.
	I want to make a few references to privatisation and ask a few relevant questions. Are we really getting value for money when we privatise our services? We all know that there has been waste and inefficiency in the past in many of our public services. However, the whole culture has changed in recent yearsthere is so much more evaluation, consideration of cost-effectiveness and questioning of what we do. Perhaps we need to think again about privatisation and consider what the public service can offer.
	Staff in Llangennech have been at the forefront of evaluation workimproving their service, developing IT and making their service more cost-effective. Therefore, how do private organisations provide better value for moneysupposedlyespecially as they want to ensure a profit margin? Perhaps they cut down on management. The MOD, however, would still need management personnel to run the contracts for any privatisation. Perhaps private companies do less and have a tendency to cherry-pick profitable activities and to leave less profitable activities behind, skimp on them or not do them properly. Perhaps they have a tendency to work to minimum requirements or to offer lower wages, with subsequent difficulties in recruiting and retaining staff of the quality that we are used to in our current workforce in Llangennech.
	My concerns about privatisation are that it will not provide value for money and that there may be lapses in the quality of service, which will only be uncovered when it is too late. I welcome the Minister's indication, however, that if the work is to be outsourced, the staff currently working in Llangennech would have the opportunity to form an appropriate organisation to bid for it. That is not an easy path to go down, however, as competing against big business and companies with whole departments dedicated to marketing and contract procurement can be very difficult.
	The difficulty with bids and contracts is that some aspects are difficult to quantifyfor example, the skills, expertise, loyalty and accuracy of the staff at Llangennech. Nothing is ever lost by them and appropriate requests are always met effectively and efficiently. Anyone who has not visited Llangennech would find it difficult to appreciate its facilities for storing publications and forms. One needs to imagine a storage facility as large as this Chamber, with steps that stretch up higher than the balcony, to about the level of the annunciator. You should imagine, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you are in a little chair, and that you are propelled along the floor to roughly where the Dispatch Box is, and then up in the air to the level of that balcony and beyond, just to collect some forms from the top shelf. The level of organisation is beyond belief, and that piece of equipment is unique and purpose-built for storing an enormous number of forms and publicationsmore than most of us can even imagine. Whoever plans to bid for that work in the private sector will have to think about how they could recreate such a facility.
	The price quoted recently for taking over just one record at the facility in Llangennechnot running the serviceis 4.5 million. If that figure is to be believed, and it relates to the work currently done by about a dozen staff, what figure would be put on the rest of the work done there, which involves some 200 staff?
	All of useven trade unionscan understand the need for restructuring, organisational change and efficiency savings. I am concerned, however, that we are not taking into account the tremendous quality of staff in Llangennech and the special facilities there. Will the Minister ensure that a really thorough appraisal is made of the potential to keep the staff and facilities at Llangennech as part of the MOD team? If that is not possible, and outsourcing is the chosen option, any bidding process should include a genuine appreciation of the quality of service that staff at Llangennech can guarantee to deliver.

Bernard Jenkin: We should think carefully about what was said by the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) about the difficulty of procuring some very complex services. She was right to say that we should value civilians in the public service and the Ministry of Defence, who provide extremely good value for money. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames), who himself paid tribute to our armed forces on behalf of the whole House, eloquently and passionately.
	As the Secretary of State pointed out in his opening speech, this debate is about how we support our armed forces. I do not wish to make any personal criticism of Ministers, but I think that as we see one operation after another unfold before us, we must conclude we cannot continue to support our armed forces in the present fashion.
	I joined the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) at the memorial service for the two soldiers from the 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment who were killed in Iraq earlier this year. Talking to the men, one is aware that there is a long tradition of healthy contempt among the junior ranks for the senior ranks, particularly those wearing red tabs who seem to make decisions that are remote from the reality of the front line. That tension is inevitable, but, talking to soldiers on that occasion, I sensed that the gulf between the reality of the front line and those who make the decisions in high places in the Ministry of Defence was widening. As I will explain, I do not think that the chiefs of staff are entirely to blame. We are facing new circumstances which it is up to us politicians to address.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) spoke of the mismatch between commitments and resources. I wish to widen the debate and speak of the inability of the modern Ministry of Defence to task military operations in a way that minimises the risks and increases effectiveness. That goes to the heart of the relationship between our military services and the politicians. The Secretary of State spoke with passion, eloquence and a command of his brief, but I must tell him that in the opening exchanges, he also demonstrated irritation. That is in part forgivable, but I think it demonstrates the tension that is building up between the reality of the front line and the general understanding among those who are ultimately responsible for decisionsthose who sit in the House of Commons and the other placeof what our armed forces are having to confront.
	It is not possible for us to be effective armchair generals, and the Secretary of State was right to admonish us about the consequences of trying to be, but I submit to him that that is not what we are about. No one in the Chamber is doing that today. In my opinion, there is a problem with the grand strategy of the country's military policy, which is ultimately selling the personnel of our armed forces very short indeed. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex said that sooner or later something would go wrong, and I suggest to him that something is already going wrong.
	We know about overstretch. We know about cancelled exercises, cancelled training, shortened tour intervals and urgent operational requirements eating the value out of the following year's defence budget when equipment is purchased and the asset is kept on the MOD's books. The Secretary of State shakes his head. If he does not know that yet, he is in for a shock. If he orders equipment as an urgent operational requirement that becomes part of the general inventory of the armed forces, the Treasury will take the money out of the following year's budget. Therefore, following Operation Telic, when a large number of urgent operational requirements were put through, there was a serious row between the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury about the following year's budget. The Treasury's automatic assumption is that money will be pulled forward from the future year's budget. There may be similar sorts of problems on that score with respect to the present operations in Afghanistan.
	The overstretch problem is a symptom of a much wider problem. I ask the House to reflect on the military tasks given to our armed forces in recent years. The first Gulf war was clearly a turning point. Then we had Bosnia in 1992, followed by Sierra Leone and Kosovo, where the optimism of the bombing did not really pay off until we showed ourselves prepared to pursue the possibility of a land war. Then, after 9/11 in 2001, we had Afghanistan and the fantastic success of the British-led international security assistance force, under General Sir John McColl, in Kabul. Then we had the Iraq war in 2003 and now Afghanistan again.
	I put it to the House that we are seeing a steady deterioration in the way that those operations are approached and resourced. For example, Bosnia, with a population of about 4.2 million people, secured the resources of 60,000 NATO troops to rebuild the country. If we apply the same ratio to Iraq, with a population of approximately 19 million people, NATO would have committed some 300,000 or 350,000 troops. No wonder the occupation of Iraq has been such a failed challenge.
	What we have seen is a constant evolution to higher and higher-risk operations, larger and larger tasks, larger and larger demands on more and more limited military capability and ever-increasing complexity. With 36 nations currently operating in Afghanistan, with 72 sets of rules of engagement and some extremely complex, almost byzantine command structures, no one can possibly pretend that military operations are not becoming more complex.
	We have also seen an evolution from peacekeeping to war fighting, nation building and long-term counter-insurgencythe most difficult and complex operation of all, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex mentioned when he quoted from Professor Holmes's book. Counter-insurgency is the most long term and most manpower-intensive of operations, depending crucially on the number of boots that can be put on the ground at any one time.
	I take the House back to planning for the Iraq war. I supported the Iraq war and I would vote for it again. I continue to support our operations in Iraq. I view the war as essential to remove Saddam Hussein. Anyone reading the Iraq survey report that came out after the invasion can see what Saddam Hussein was up to. Much of the press chose not to and no one ever talks about the cost of failing to take action against him. However, we planned for the invasion and not the occupation, and the failure of planning for the occupation has certainly cost the lives of many British and allied service personnel.
	Why and how did that happen? I visited Umm Qasr and Basra just a few weeks after the cessation of invasion hostilities. There was calm and peace on the streets of Basra. There was no insurgency and there was an expectation that things would start to happen that never had happened. I had an exchange with the General Officer Commanding the British forces in Iraq at that time, and his response was, Where the hell is DFID? Why isn't anything happening? It was into that vacuum that the insurgency built up and we left ourselves with a far greater problem than we ever should have had to face.
	Why did that occur? Was it poor intelligence? Both the British and the Americans were certainly reliant on far too few Iraqi sources in terms of what to expect after the invasion. There was a lack of understanding of what invading a country actually means. We had had itdare I say it?easy in Bosnia, and very easy in Kuwait. This was a very different challenge. I remember the right hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon) joking on the Floor of the House about the liberation of regime assets as the invasion took place. Neither he norI confessI truly understood what the looting presaged about the meaning of the complete breakdown of order and stability for the long-term future of the occupation of Iraq.
	The planning also broke down because there was a collapse of collective responsibility in Her Majesty's Government before the invasion. The Department that might have been responsible for planning more effectively and for advising the Prime Minister more effectively on the future of Iraq failed to do so because the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Short) was pursuing her own private agenda. I often ask myself what the Prime Minister and President Bush said to each other at that time about the post-invasion future of Iraq. I reflect that Baroness Thatcher might have taken President Bush rather more to task, insisting that there would not be an invasion of Iraq until such

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that this debate is about armed forces personnel; he has ranged rather wide of that.

Bernard Jenkin: I am suitably corrected by you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The point that I am trying to make is that the failure of planning, and the lack of appreciation of the scale of the challenge of what is sometimes mis-called the global war on terrorism, is having a devastating and intolerable impact on the long-term effectiveness of our armed forces personnel, and on their lives and families.
	I will fast-forward to Afghanistan, where we are involved in another extremely complex operation. The planning for that operation has not fully provided for what our armed forces personnel are having to face. I agree with my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State for Defence that the price of failure would be intolerable and that it would have global security implications, but I am not at all sure that enough people back here understand what our armed forces personnel are having to face. They are fighting a counter-insurgency war. Afghanistan is not like Northern Ireland, which has 175 miles of open borders; it has 1,500 miles of open borders with Pakistan, and it is impossible to see how the unlimited supply of insurgents will cease pouring across the Pakistani border.
	We talk about bringing democracy to Afghanistan, and I am lost in admiration for the ability of our armed forcesthe people on the groundto understand the complexities involved in dealing with a village in the dusty heat, to build relationships, to extend the hand of friendship between nations and to build confidence in the security situation, at the same time as dealing with the threats posed by the Taliban. But this is a country in which the armed forces have had a sporadic presence for more than 100 years, and its culture is not to rely on outside forces. A 30-year commitment could be required to stabilise Afghanistan. Is there an appreciation in the Ministry of Defence, at the heart of Government or in this House of the fact that stabilising and building up security and usingdare I say it?the blood of our armed forces to build that country is a very much greater commitment than was suggested when the then Secretary of State came to this House to announce this substantial deployment. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring that we need to match commitments and resources. We need to have our commitments matched by other countries, as he pointed out, which is clearly not happening. We need to support our armed forces personnel in the field, and that applies as much to the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force as to the Army, about which I have been talking.
	We need to develop a more comprehensive doctrine for combating international terrorism, weapons proliferation and rogue states. I suspect that that means, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex intimated, substantially increased defence spending. The present state of doctrine and policy sells our armed forces short and ill serves the personnel on whom we rely so much and whom we expect to be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice.
	What of the relationship between the military and the politicians? Ministers rely on advice from the service chiefs and it is the worst defence of Ministers to say, when something goes wrong, that they relied on the advice of the service chiefs. Do the politicians really want to hear the truth at all times from our most senior armed forces personnel? I recall that Admiralnow LordBoyce warned about putting our hand into the mangle of Afghanistan and embarrassed the Secretary of State by saying that our armed forces were overstretched. His term was cut short. I submit that the way we treat our service chiefs is just as important as the way we treat our armed forces personnel lower down the chain of command. We have to recognise that they are servants of the Crown and rightly loyal to the Ministers they serve. In the spirit of the armed forces, they are most unlikely to stand up publicly and say that this cannot be done and we will not do itindeed, I question whether they should. That is not their job. But we are putting them in an impossible situation, loading the armed forces with new commitments. It is their spirit to say that they will do their best with what they have got, on any job the politicians give them to do.
	I am reminded of what Admiral Sir John Woodward, the commander of the Falkland Islands task force, said when explaining what preparing for a military commitment actually means. He said that the first question one asks is, What have we got? That is because what one has now is all one has. I submit that the House needs to understand that to serve our armed forces personnel effectively, in the present global climate and the present commitment load, we have not got enough. It is the armed forces who will suffer the consequences of that the most, because we have hardly begun to understand the consequences of 9/11 or to appreciate the real nature of what must be done to defeat international terrorism in the modern world.

David Anderson: The debate about armed forces personnel is about real people. As with most other hon. Members, the real people that I knew in the armed forces were my relations, although I did not know my grandfather, who sadly died at the age of only 32 as a direct result of being poisoned with mustard gas on the Somme. I had two uncles, one of whom was a prisoner of war in Burma and made to work on the Burma railroad and another who, ironically, left the coal mines in 1928 because he hated working in them. He joined the Army and was taken prisoner at Dunkirk, fighting the rearguard action there. He ended up working in a Polish coal mine for four years. My father joined the RAF, but he was sent home after three days because, he was told, You'll do more important work back home digging coal, Geordie, than flying aeroplanes.
	I do not have any personal or professional experience in the forces, but in a debate about armed forces personnel, I have relevant recent experience of the impact that our forces are having on the lives of ordinary people facing massive, extraordinary problems in Iraq. We have not just sent our forces to Iraq to fight a battle for us and then leave. Would that we had done thatit might have been a different story.
	Our armed forces personnel in Iraq have a very difficult job, as the local people recognise. In March, I was fortunate enough to lead a delegation of Labour movement people to Iraq. Most of us had been against the war, and I still believe that the debate on weapons of mass destruction was not a fair one. However, the people whom we met said that they did not want to talk about WMD, because they were worried about GRTgetting rid of a tyrant.
	The Iraqis saw our Government and armed forces as forces for good, and we must listen to them. It is easy for us to be critical and to point the finger, but our armed forces went into Iraq to get rid of a tyrant who had spent the best part of 20 years trying to wipe out an entire race of peoplethe Kurds. In Sulaimaniya, we saw examples of the torture that had been inflicted. In a matter-of-fact building about the size of a supermarket, on the main street in the middle of town, people had been hung in chains and subjected to electric shocks. They had suffered almost every horror that one could imagine.
	Thanks to the action taken by the British Government and their coalition partners in 1991 to establish the no-fly zone, and thanks also to the work that still goes on, the people in the Kurdistan area of Iraq have been able to build a fledgling democracy. They have a Parliament with 111 Members, and the fact that 29 of them are women puts our institution to shame. Without our intervention, that would not have happened: instead, 200,000 more people would have been killed, many thousands more would have been buried alive, tortured and persecuted, and many more villages would have been wiped off the face of the earth. That is what was happening, yet many in the world community were turning a blind eye.
	I still have concerns about how we went to war, but people in the area believe that we did the right thing on their behalf. We must listen to what they say, and we should continue to do the right thing, which means that we should remain there.
	The people of Kurdistan are very keen to develop links with the UK. They see us as their liberators and

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have allowed a degree of latitude in the debate, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will now relate his remarks to armed forces personnel.

David Anderson: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My point is that, without the continued involvement of our armed forces in Iraq, the situation there would not be starting to improve. The real-life experience is that our troops are having a huge impact on people's lives.
	The people of Kurdistan want the UK to invest in their country. That is not happening yet, but we could use our military presence in a positive way. Our armed forces could protect UK businesses and investors, and provide security for people willing to put money into Kurdistan and work with the Government there. In that way, we could help spread democracy across the rest of Iraq. Our troops could play a very positive role in that respect. They could also help in our work with Kurds in this country, and thus provide more support for people in Iraq.
	I have criticised Iraq's Government in the past, and I remain critical of the fact that trade union rights are still denied to Kurds and Iraqis. However, if our troops had not gone into Iraq, the debate about trade union rights would not be taking place at all. There was no such thing as a trade union movement in that country before our troops gave people there the scope to develop democratic institutions and have legitimate democratic arguments. The continuing presence of our troops in Iraq is allowing that process to go on.
	There has been much discussion about whether our armed forces should stay in Iraq. Last night, the general secretary of the Kurdistan workers syndicate spoke at a meeting in this House. He was asked whether the time had come to withdraw British troops from Iraq, but his unequivocal answer was that that would be a catastrophe. Although he wants our troops to leave Iraq at the earliest possible moment, he made it clear that that moment has not arrived. The time to leave will come when the job is done. We should recognise that and continue to support the work of our troops.
	We should help all the peoples of Iraq to rebuild their country, so that they can play their part in bringing peace and stability to the wider middle east. We must continue to protect them and their families from those who would destroy them or halt their progress along the road to democracy and the creation of genuine democratic structures. I did not see one British soldier when I was in Kurdistan, but their work and effort and their impact on the country was clear for all to see. It could be seen in people's confidence in the way forward.
	My words are in no way an apology for the Government nor for the bad behaviour of individual members of the armed forces. Wethe Houseasked the armed forces to do a job on our behalf and on behalf of other people in the world. We should be proud of the job they are doing and support them in doing it.

Robert Key: It is axiomatic that the Member of Parliament for Wiltshireindeed, all Wiltshire Members of Parliamentshould take seriously their responsibilities to the armed forces of this country, as well as the wives and families of those brave people and the civilian populations who support them.
	Last Sunday, I was in the village of Fovant in Wiltshire at the annual drumhead service for the Fovant Badges Society. As we remembered the battle of the Somme, the Australian high commissioner reminded us of the part that Australia had played in the military history of our islands. In front of 34 Royal British Legion banners and about 300 veterans and their families, we sang our hearts out for the people who, on their way to and from the Somme, had carved in the chalk hillside their regimental badges, including the badge of the Anzacs.
	That service brought home to me the continuity of military tradition in the county of Wiltshire. The memory goes much further back than the first world war and beyond the days when Salisbury plain was purchased by the War Department to be our primary training area: for 300 years, at 12 noon on the day after the poll, the Member of Parliament for Salisbury of the time has to ascend the balcony of the White Hart hotel in Salisbury and sing the marching song of the Wiltshire Regiment[Hon. Members: Sing it now.] Sadly, I am not allowed to, although I should love to; I have successfully sung the song six times and look forward to doing so a seventh time, and who knows how many more.
	The ceremony illustrates the relationship between the military and the agricultural communities from which it drew its forces. For 300 years, the old county regiment of Wiltshire has fought with the British Army all over the world. There is an ancient and tattered flag in the nave of Salisbury cathedralthe very flag that the Wiltshire Regiment took up the Potomac river to sack the White House. I remind my American friends of that and point out the flag with great pleasure [Laughter.] They have a good chuckle, too.
	We are talking about something much more important than mere history; it is living history. This is my first opportunity in a defence debate to recall with sorrow the passing into history of the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment. We lament its passing, and I echo the words of those who have said that the geographical representation of the British regiments is important to our traditions and that we are losing something by further amalgamations. I hope that we shall stop them before we become just like any other old army. I remember, too, the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry, which still exists but only as a company and not as a proud regiment.
	We have talked much today about the strength of the regular forces. I note that on 1 April 2006 the naval service had a shortfall between trained requirement and strength of about 1,300 people, which is a decrease of 600 from the previous year. The RAF was 600 under strength in April 2006, and shortfalls have been recorded in four of the last five years.
	At the same time, the Army needed 1,200 trained personnel to reach its requirements, which is two thirds of the shortfall recorded in the previous year. That is a move in the right direction and I am very relieved about it. After the Secretary of State's announcement on Monday about Project Hyperion and the other defence acquisition hub announcements, I look forward to hearing more about the proposal to create a new three-star command for recruitment and training, which will, I hope, make the Army even more effective in that respect than it is already.
	I offer some praise and comfort in respect of recruitment in very difficult days. It is always easy for the military to recruit when unemployment is very high. Of course, without the foundations laid by the previous Conservative Government, unemployment would not have fallen in the past nine years or so, but civilian staffing is also very important indeed, particularly in my constituency. The Secretary of State for Defence referred to the vital work of civilian staff. They are hugely important in my constituency, and they range from the defence scientists at Porton Down to the administrative grades in Land Command at Wilton.
	I am not at all surprised that the Public and Commercial Services union has briefed very thoroughly, efficiently and accurately the Members of Parliament involved in the recent announcements. We need to remember that the number of civilian employees in the military has declined by 23 per cent. since 1997. I should say for the sake of accuracy that it has decreased by 45 per cent. since 1990, before that argument rears its head again. The civilian work force supporting the military has continually declined over the past 16 years, and we need to remember that when we are listening to the unions and others.
	It is therefore very important that we consider the role of the civilian work force, and I wish to pass on my own very grateful thanks to all the scientific, industrial and administrative civil servants who work at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Downthe constant butt of criticism and inaccurate reporting and sometimes of vicious and inaccurate comments, even from Members of Parliament, as happened quite recently. The way in which a Member attacked DSTL was disgracefulits employees are the very people who provide the daily protection for our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are working hard at Porton Down to protect our service personnel.
	I also think of all the military and civilian staff at Winterbourne Gunner and the way in which they are training the military. Indeed, every police force in the country receives its chemical, biological and radiological training at Winterbourne Gunner outside Salisbury.
	QinetiQ at Boscombe Down is a huge success story involving the privatisation of part of the old Defence Evaluation and Research Agency into DSTL, which remains public sector, and QinetiQ. I opposed that change not just because well over 1,000 people in my constituency were involved, but because I thought that it was wrong. I thought that something that Margaret Thatcher refused to privatise was likely not to be sensibly privatisable, but it turns out to have proved successful. QinetiQ at Boscombe Down now employs not 1,200 people, but nearly 1,800 people, and it is a hugely successful enterprise that provides an important part of the infrastructure of defence in this country.
	I should also like to mentionI am not the first Member to do so todaythe importance of Defence Medical Services. Ever since I first served on the Defence Committee, back in 1995, I have been very concerned about what happened to Defence Medical Services. There was not a glorious transition. Nevertheless, we have what we have. Unfortunately, pay and salaries have dropped substantially. Negotiations are in progress as we speak, but a settlement should have been reached for the new uplifts in pay for armed forces doctors.
	Besides the regular doctors and consultants, I pay tribute to the reservists and Territorials who play an absolutely crucial part. This year, the district hospital in my constituency has had five consultants operating in theatre in Afghanistan and Iraq. They make an enormous contribution. They forgo quite a lot to do it, but their work is extremely important. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us some good news on progress in that respect in his winding-up speech.
	I served on the Armed Forces Bill Committee earlier this yearmy third such engagement with an Armed Forces Bill and, I hope, my last because we might not need another one now that we have a tri-service Actso I should like to comment on the work of the Chaplain General's Department. This is the first year in which the Army has provided for the spiritual welfare of men and women of faiths other than Christianity. I warmly welcome that and I am sure that it is a move in the right direction. I have seen Army chaplains at work in the fieldin particular in the Balkans, but elsewhere tooand I have been hugely impressed by their professionalism and by the high regard in which they are held by the people in their charge. I wonder whether they are better out in theatre than perhaps they are sometimes in the garrison towns around Salisbury plain. I do not know.
	What I do know, however, is that during the passage of the Armed Forces Bill, we took evidence from families whose young men had suffered from bullying and worse and it was distressing to hear that, to them, the padre was just another officer who could not really be trusted. That gets to the nub of the problem with Army chaplains: they have a duty of confidentiality in relation to the confessional, but they also have a duty of confidentiality to the chain of command. I wonder whether that circle can ever be squared. It might be slightly easier in the Royal Navy, where a chaplain is not an officer. I do not know.

James Gray: May I correct my hon. Friend slightly? He is quite right that, in the Royal Navy, chaplainsmy father was onedo not wear a badge of rank, but that does not mean that they are not officers. They bear the same rank as the person to whom they are speaking, so when they are speaking to a rating, they are themselves ratings. That is an important point.

Robert Key: That is crucial. It is a fascinating point and one that I would like to take up. Tomorrow, I will travel to York to the General Synod of the Church of England. It is interesting that the Chaplain General's Department is fully accredited to the General Synod of the Church of England and will be represented there. I can see some interesting discussions taking place.
	I would like to say a few words about the Royal Military Police, who are hardly ever mentioned, except when things go wrong. I first came across the Royal Military Police in my constituency. Then, as now, five different police forcesmost of them military of different colours and badges and so onwere operating in my constituency. The Royal Military Police were always around in their vehicles. Late on a Saturday night, if there was a spot of bother in the garrison towns at closing time, Wiltshire constabulary put a quick call through to the RMP and suddenly everyone calmed down and disappeared very quickly indeed, because the disciplinary procedure is quite different. Someone who is picked up by Wiltshire constabulary is in the cells overnight, rapped over the knuckles by the magistrates and let out the next morning; someone who is caught by the RMP is up on charges in front of the commanding officer the next morning and is fined 700. That is a no-brainer.
	I next met the RMP when I was in Sarajevo, Banja Luka and elsewhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1996. We had close protection squads from the RMP looking after us. They were very dangerous days. I was full of admiration thenand nowfor the work that they do. The strange thing is that, in battle, the RMP are always right out there at the front. They are in front of the armour and the artillery, staking out the forward route in their Land Rovers and so on. They are very lightly armoured, if at all, and they have no protection from mines, small arms or artillery. I know that that is being addressed. I have raised the matter before with the Minister of State. We know that there is a new stream of Panther vehicles coming to the Army later. However, what bothers me is that, in a parliamentary question, I asked who was going to get those vehicles first, and the answer was the training regiments. That is fine, but no mention was made of the RMP. I thought that we were talking about what was meant to be a front-line reconnaissance vehicle.

Mark Pritchard: Does my hon. Friend agree that, although it is important that those vehicles come on stream as soon as possible, it is equally important that there is forward planning by the Ministry of Defence when it comes to the training on those vehicles, so that there is no gap between training and deployment?

Robert Key: Yes, that is a natural consequence. I am sure that the Minister will have taken that on board.

Ann Winterton: On the Panthers, which are feeding through soon, is my hon. Friend aware that the theatres and situations in which they can be used are limited? They were preferred to the RG-31s, which are much more flexible, have performed extremely well in Iraq and are used by the Canadians in Kandahar province.

Robert Key: I am well aware of both that and my hon. Friend's advocacy of the RG-31s.

Ann Winterton: They are cheaper and better.

Robert Key: Well, fine, someone must have evaluated them along the line. In any event, those out in the front with the Royal Military Police should have these vehicles, or some equivalent.
	When peacekeeping, as we are seeing in Iraq, the RMP has the most difficult task of gathering evidence in terribly difficult circumstances. The special investigation branch has to go out in dangerous circumstances in inadequate vehicles. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me and say that the Royal Military Police will indeed have an early choice of the use of the vehicles for their vital tasks both in battle and in peacetime work.
	I wonder what it is about the Royal Military Police, but the way in which other people in the military perceive its members is generally not very flattering, with a lot of references to coppers and so on. There is probably just old-fashioned, time-expired snobbery towards the coppers. Talking of rank, can the Minister tell me why there has never been a Royal Military Police officer above the rank of two star? That is fascinating? Again, talking of rank, my colleagues on the Defence Committee and I wonder why no woman in the Army has ever exceeded the rank of brigadier. I suppose that there is a glass ceiling.
	There was an announcement earlier this week about Project Hyperion, which is crucial to my constituency. I am talking about the future of 1,700 people who are being moved from Upavon, which is in the constituency of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), and Wilton, which is in my constituency, to south Andover. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) thus has the good fortune of receiving those people in his constituency, but it will be very much our loss.
	HQ Land Command and the Adjutant-General's department are being amalgamated, which is sensible. As in every other service, it makes good sense for the Army to have one headquarters. However, it is not as simple as that. We are talking about disruption to the lives of a lot of loyal civilian workers in the military. In fact, there will be 200 civilian job losses and about 100 military redeployments.
	The process marks the end of a long and historic association. Owing to the generosity of the then Earl of Pembroke, Southern Command took over Wilton House in the dark days of 1940. It was in the famous double cube room of Wilton House that Generals Montgomery and Eisenhower planned the Normandy landings and the liberation of France and Europe. While the Army was there, it acquired land from the Wilton estate and built the Erskine barracks on the other side of the A36. That site is now the headquarters of the largest budget holder in the British Army, and there is a work force of 1,300 on that site alone. The fortunes of the military and civilian communities are intertwined economically and socially. We have married quarters at both Bulbridge, which is south of Wilton, and Erskine barracks itself.
	I was grateful to the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, for writing to me on 3 July to fill in the statement of the Secretary of State. He said that no future defence use had been identified for the Wilton or Upavon sites, but:
	I do not rule out the possibility that a use will be identified, but at present our assumption is that both sides will close once the new HQ is fully operational at Andover. However, we will retain the married quarters at both sites.
	That prompts some questions.
	First, when will Ministers be able to rule out a further defence use? Sensible, rational planning is needed for a new future for the site, which is strategically important because it is on the railway and the A36. What is the relationship with Project Allenby? Will we be told at the last minute that the draw-down for Germany, the pressures of Project Allenby, the rebuilding of the military estate and the move from Aldershot towards Wiltshire will mean that extra accommodation is needed for the military? That uncertainty should be ended as soon as possible. Who owns the site anyway? For two years, I have pursued the question of Crichel Down rules, which always come back to haunt us. The personnel who work at Land Command do not know whether they own the site. It is hugely important to decide whether the land will revert to the estate or whether the Treasury will sell it off.
	We are delighted that the married quarters are to be retained, but what does that mean? Addington Homes owns the Erskine married quarters, but I do not know whether it owns Bulbridge. Civilians and military personnel have been consulted, and the Secretary of State has reinforced the importance of doing that. At both national and local level, the trade unions will be consulted, which is welcome. So far, however, the county council and the district council, which is the planning authority, have not been consulted. More importantly, the people of Wilton and their elected representatives on Wilton town council have not been consulted.
	The town of Wilton is a proud and ancient community that pre-dates the city of Salisbury and gave its name to the county of Wiltshire. It has recognised the role of thousands of armed forces personnel for nearly 70 years, so the Ministry of Defence should not think for a moment that Wilton does not care about that momentous decision. On the contrarythe people of Wilton care passionately about their relationship with the military, the land that it has occupied for all those years and the married quarters that the town will continue to host. I hope that a team from Defence Estates or the most appropriate agency will meet the local authorities, particularly Wilton town council, to ensure that their voice is heard. That site must remain in the ownership of the local community, emotionally if not legally.
	We must consider the security of armed forces personnel before they move to south Andover. The interface between the Home Office constabulary, Wiltshire police and the service police is crucial for both armed forces personnel and civilians. The patrolling of the married quarters estates at Bulbridge and Erskine barracks was undertaken by the Ministry of Defence police, but they have already moved from Erskine barracks to Tidworth on Salisbury plain. The military guard, the familiar Army security control vehicles and the Royal Military Police are all part of a sensitive security network that shields hundreds of armed forces personnel and the local community. We would therefore like to know more about the proposals. The leader of the district council has set up a taskforce on behalf of the planning authority, and I very much hope that there will be a matching commitment by the Ministry of Defence to work with the local community.
	Finally, may I simply reiterate the admiration that I share with many right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House for the work of armed forces personnel, whether they are in theatre at the sharp end or are in the background providing the infrastructure to allow the country's soldiers, sailors and airmen to do their magnificent work on our behalf around the world? We can be proud of their role, and very proud, too, of all the civilians who support them.

Ann Winterton: I am always diffident about taking part in defence debates, as I have not served in the armed services, although I have relatively recent connections with the forces. My husband was a national service officer, and our elder son was a regular officer in the same regimentthe 14th/20th King's Hussars. As we speak, his second son is at a combined cadet force camp on Dartmoor, so perhaps there will be a third generation in the armed services in due course.
	At the outset of my brief contribution, may I pay tribute to all our armed service personnel, who are the very best services in the world and serve with great distinction and valour? May I extend my deepest sympathies to families who have been bereaved, some very recently indeed?
	It is an obvious thing to say but also true that without people who are prepared to join the Army, Navy and Air Force to serve our country, we would have no armed forces. One of the key problems being faced is the important issue of recruitment and retention, which has been mentioned in the debate. We are frequently told by Ministers that because the United Kingdom has enjoyed a successful economy for some time, difficulties in recruiting have been exacerbated. The only answer that the MOD has come up with to date to seek to solve the problem is to pour massive amounts of money into recruitment in the hope of attracting sufficient personnel for the future.
	However, we all are aware that money is getting tight and the Chancellor will probably not be too keen on providing more, in spite of the United Kingdom's many and ongoing military commitments in various theatres. I believe that the problem is far more deeply rooted than just competition in the employment market place. The unemployment figures are beginning to creep up nationally, so in a relatively short time that reason will, perhaps, no longer be valid.
	We should cast our minds back to December 1998 during the negotiations on the St. Malo agreement. It was at that time that the Prime Minister decided that the UK would not join the euro. In all matters relating to the European Union, there can never be a straight decision. There is always a trade-offthat is, a price to be paid. In this instance, the UK conceded and agreed that our forces would be integrated into a European Union defence force.
	From that time onwards, the Ministry of Defence did not quite know in what direction it would have to commit our armed forces in the future. Would the first priority be to serve the interests of the UK, or to co-operate with the European Union or with the United States of America, or a combination of all three? If the MOD did not know in which direction it was meant to be going, how could members of the armed services second-guess the future? Subsequently, the problems have been exacerbated because the UK is engaged in conflicts in which our troops are committed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
	It has been well understood that, moving on from the former cold war scenario, changes would have to be introduced and the concept of the future Army structure came to light with its objective of strengthening the medium sector. It is crystal clear that we are without a whole category of vehicles suitable for counter-insurgency work, and this lack has been shown in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The focus and direction of policy has been to prioritise the future rapid effect system, which is an integral part of the European Union rapid reaction force, but which realistically will not be in operation until possibly as late as 2020. Moreover, the whole project falls into a world of fantasy in which the total package requires airlift, electronics, future technology and state of the art communication at a projected overall cost of 6 billion initially, which ballooned almost overnight to 14 billion.
	Those sums are all beyond our financial means and are almost just a wish list, but these plans have resulted in us taking our eye off the ball. Rather than concentrating on what is needed now and for the immediate future to enable our armed forces to meet the challenges of fighting insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistaninsurgents who are highly mobile and armed with cheap but deadly weaponrywe are left in a virtual vacuum. We are expecting our forces to operate Snatch 1 armoured Land Rovers from Northern Ireland, which are clapped out and always overheating and breaking down. The No. 2s are just about acceptable, with a little life left in them yet, while the No. 3s are very few on the ground.
	The problem is that we are forced to use these old vehicles because there is no alternative, and because of ongoing long-term commitments the MOD is now virtually broke. We heard a little earlier in the debate that there are to be further cuts of at least 1 billion. The Chancellor has judged that there are more important things on which to spend taxpayers' money, so is it any wonder that the strength of our armed forces is under pressureby strength, I mean the number of personnel who are currently serving in the armed services? The answer that the Government have arrived at is to keep moving the establishmentthe number of service personnel who are actually needed to fulfil our present commitmentsdownwards. By that neat mechanism of fiddling the figures, the MOD can claim that we are nearly up to strength.
	I have still not been able to acquire the reserve forces figures, which were due to be published on 1 April this year, in spite of my tabling more than one written parliamentary question. The present figures are 15 months old, which makes one wonder what is going on in the MOD. If I may make a suggestion, it is much better to publish and be damned rather than to make people think that it is sheer administrative incompetence, or that the Government are trying to keep the truth from hon. Members and from the public who have an interest in these matters. If the figures are not provided before the recess, one can only assume that they are being deliberately withheld.
	Recruitment of the Territorial Army and the regulars is now being merged, which will, in my view, be disastrous if it is not handled professionally and with a great deal of thought and planning. The recruiting teams will have to be made to understand that they are dealing with two completely different animals. The regulars operate in what might be described as a military bubble, but the TA personnel are, first and foremost, civilians and come from a totally different background and experience, although they have a considerable amount to offer the armed services.
	While our armed forces are placing their lives on the line each and every day on behalf of us all, which they are now doing in Afghanistan as well as in Iraq, it is essential that the Government, through the MOD and Parliament, concentrate on providing what is necessary for the present and for the immediate future. The Prime Minister has spent too much time placing European Union integrationist policy first, rather than ensuring that present day servicemen and women have appropriate and adequate resources and equipment.
	If we do not provide our forces with the best that money can buy, rather than some of the present outdated equipment, which is hardly fit for purpose, will it be any surprise if we cannot recruit or retain sufficient high-calibre personnel? By spending too much time and energy on the future creation of forces which will eventually be totally integrated within the European Union rapid defence force, the Prime Minister and his Chancellor have sold the pass and limited the choices for the future.
	Many commentators believe that the Army of today is being starved of resources in order to feed a fantasy army of the future. I hope that they will be proved wrong, and I trust that the MOD will provide the appropriate equipment for our armed services to allow them to perform their valuable and vital duties.

Several hon. Members: rose

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind hon. Members that there is a limited amount of time left for this debate. If more hon. Members are to catch my eye, brief contributions would be helpful.

James Gray: My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) started her remarks modestly by being self-deprecating about her knowledge of defence, which she belied by the depth of knowledge and detail in her speech. Hon. Members will have been astonished to hear that someone so young could possibly be married to someone who did national service. I am glad that the cavalry arrived in time to hear the best part of her speech.
	As always happens on these occasions, today's debate consists of three main strands. First, all hon. Membersthis is probably true of all hon. Members throughout historyhave been unanimous in paying tribute to the courage, professionalism, discipline and dedication of our armed services, both in times of peace and in times of war, which is the case at the moment in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The job that they do is not a job that many of us sitting in this air-conditioned Chamber would willingly do, although some of us sometimes pretend otherwise, and we pay tribute to all that they do and to the support provided by their families. That is an enormously important strand in this annual personnel debate.
	The second strand that recurs in these debates concerns the kit and equipment with which our armed forces are sent to war. There are always discussions about whether there is enough body armour, whether there are enough bullets, and whether the equipment could be improved in one way or another. For my part, I am proud that 9 Supply Regiment, the Royal Logistics Corps is based in my constituency; it does an outstanding job of ensuring that equipment gets to troops on the front line. However, improvements could be made in the computer systems that enable it to get that equipment through to the boys on the front line. During Telic 1, for example, a significant amount of equipment, particularly body armour, was stored at Umm Qasr but should have been issued. Nevertheless, we should be proud of the fact that the British armed services have the highest standards of equipment issued to any armed services anywhere in the world. Of course, it could always be improved or used more effectively. It is also true that soldiers will always go out and purchase their own equipment. Before any deployment or operation, the boys will go out and buy their own stuff, but that is not to say that the stuff that they have is not first class. It is worth paying tribute to the quality of the equipment supplied to them.
	I have particular concerns about the foam flame retardant that is being fitted to the wing tanks of the Hercules fleet. Having heard in this House only last week that the first plane will be completed by August, I understand that that has slipped at least to September and possibly to October. I do not want the Minister to give away any secrets that would help our enemy, but I hope that he will take on board the fact that the community around Lyneham in my constituency is desperately keen that that retardant should be fitted as soon as possible. Leaving aside such details, broadly speaking the equipment with which our troops go to war is first class.
	The third strandthe one that has most preoccupied us and is perhaps the most important at a time like thisis the question of whether the things that we are asking our armed services to do are matched by the numbers of people and the quality of the equipment that they are given to do them with. In that context, I am glad that this debate follows our debate on defence policy a couple of Thursdays ago. What are our armed services for? Are we always going to support the United States in everything that it does? Are we to go around the world as a kind of world police force? Are we engaged in home defence and crisis management on our own shores? We have a whole variety of roles in the Balkans, the Falklands, Northern Ireland and Germanythe list goes on and on. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) said, we are being asked to do more and more. There seems to be a global strategic mission creep. The Government are very free about saying that we will do these thingsWe must do something about it: let's send some troopsbut less free with the supply of people to do them.

Eric Joyce: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

James Gray: I will not, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, because he has only just arrived, unlike those of us who have sat through the debate for the entire afternoon. We are short of time, and I want to allow some of my hon. Friends to speak.
	During the Conservatives' time in office, there was something called MARILYN, which stood for manning and recruitment in the lean years of the nineties. At that time, it was predicted that a drop-off in population numbers would prevent us from recruiting enough people into the armed services. Perhaps that should now become MARTINETmanning and recruitment in the now even more terrible years of the twenties. Some serious manning and recruitment problems are coming our way. With 103,000 Army personnel, we now have the smallest Army there has ever been. If that figure falls below 100,000, we will no longer able to call it an army in normal nomenclature. We have the smallest Army since the battle of Waterloo, yet it is being asked to do more and more. The same applies to the Royal Navy and the Air Force.
	I am especially concerned about the Territorial Army and the reserve forces in general because they were significantly cut in the strategic defence review. At the time, it was said to be a good thing but we have subsequently discovered that we could not have carried out operations in Iraq or Afghanistan without our reserves. I suspect that current figures for the number of reserves available to us are probably substantially misleading. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton made an interesting point about that.
	When a soldier returns after serving six or eight months in Iraq, it is unlikely that any other than the unemployed Territorial Army soldier will volunteer to go a second time. The nature of the TA soldier deployed on operations has changed significantly since the day when I had the honour of serving in the TA. I suspect that several people will return from operations overseas, remain a member of their regiment for a timeespecially, I am ashamed to say, to collect their annual bounty, which provides important financial helpand move on. I therefore suspect that the number of people available to the services from the TA and the other reserve forces is significantly smaller than the figures suggest. The Government must, therefore, consider carefully how we can increase the number of soldiers, sailors and airmen in our reserves and how we can prevent that number from falling further.
	If a truly fundamental strategic defence review were to take place again and we were to set out our purposes and how our armed forces would carry out those tasks, the number of servicemen availablefrom memory, it is 185,000 in the three serviceswould be too small. If we are to undertake the war against terror alongside the United States, the world's policing and the homeland defence tasks that face us now, any sensible and dispassionate observer will say, The number is too small. The elastic is stretched to its limit. Can it be stretched further?
	One former Prime Minister of our great nation told me that when he was Prime Minister he went to see the teachers and they listened to him, but, after a time, they told him to get lost. He visited the doctors and nurses and they, too, listened carefully, but again, after a time, they told him to get lost. Then he went to see the generals and, time and again, they turned to the right, saluted and got on with what they were told to do. All Prime Ministers and Governments increasingly love the military because the military carry out their instructions in a way that no other public servants do. In a sense, the trouble with the British forces is that they have a can-do mentality. No matter what they are asked to do, they will get on with itand they have been doing that in spades in recent years.
	At what stage will British forces be asked to do too much? When will the elastic snap? Several of us are worried that, at this moment in our strategic outlook on life, we are very near to that point. I hate the thought that something might happen, around the world or onshorelet us suppose that, heaven forfend, three explosions take place in different towns simultaneouslyand our armed forces have to say, I'm sorry, Secretary of State, but we cannot do it. I am horrified at the thought that a point may come in the history of our nation when that happens.
	The debate is, therefore, important. It is vital that the Governmentno one else can do itconsider carefully what they ask our armed forces to do and the resources that they give them to do it. My instinct tells me that they will conclude that the resources are woefully inadequate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer must face up to it and spend significantly more on our defences.

Gordon Banks: I am grateful to be called to speak and happy to follow the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray). I apologise for not being present throughout the debate.
	I want to bring to hon. Members' attention a responsibility that the Ministry of Defence has shirked for too longthe Bevin boys, who were conscripted miners between 1943 and 1948. The Ministry's responsibility is clear. Those men were conscripts, called up to serve their country, who, through luck or lack of it, ended up underground, mining coal to keep our war effort going. Let me explain the process whereby someone ended up as a Bevin boy. Every month, as conscription proceeded, Ernest Bevin, Minister of Labour, put in his bowler hat the numbers zero to nine and his secretary pulled out two numbers. Every conscript whose national registration number ended with those digits was posted to the mines. Those who refused to be posted were dealt with under the wartime emergency powers legislation, and often had to serve a jail sentence, as well as time down the pit on their release.
	If it had not been for the process devised by Bevin, those conscripts would have served in our armed forces. The Ministry of Defence has rightly honoured armed forces veterans in recent years in an increasing number of ways, and it also has a responsibility to honour the Bevin boys.
	Why was there a need for conscripted miners? The Government had allowed experienced coal miners to join the armed services, and to transfer from pit work to more highly paid jobs elsewhere in industryand, with all due respect, who would not make that choice? It was hoped that the gaps in mining numbers would be taken up by the unemployed. However, by mid-1943, more than 36,000 miners had left the industry, many for better jobs, and the move by the Government to make the industry a reserved occupation was too little, too late. Coal production slumped dangerously low and, by the end of 1943, it was estimated that Britain had only three weeks' supply in reserve. So, in December 1943, Bevin hatched his plan, and 48,000 men ended up serving in the system until 1948long after many of their military counterparts had been returned to civilian life. Bevin boys therefore assisted not only with our war effort, but in our reconstruction process.
	The return to normality for the Bevin boys after their service was a return to nothing. Their pre-conscription employment was not protected, and there were no pensions for those injured during their service. Armed service conscripts were rightly allowed to keep their military uniform, given a demob suit and paid leave, and received war and campaign medals. They could also return to their pre-war employment. Not so the Bevin boys. So, in many ways, the Bevin boys suffered during their conscription and continued to suffer after the end of their national service. To my mind, the memory to them continues to suffer today.
	Many of those young men wanted to do what they saw as their duty and fight the Nazi tyranny that was engulfing the world at that time. Many therefore felt that their status as Bevin boys was not given just recognition. Many Bevin boys were also subjected to a range of taunts, humiliating attacks and unpleasant behaviour. As they wore no uniform when off duty, they were often believed to be avoiding their military service, promoting suspicion that they were draft dodgers, deserters or even enemy agents. Many were regularly challenged by the police.
	Those conscripts were not well looked after in the 1940s, and they are not well recognised 60 years later. It was not until the 50th anniversary of VE day and VJ day during May and August 1995 that they received any recognition at all. Speeches made by the Queen, the then Speaker of this House and the Prime Minister acknowledged their value in words, but now is the time for deeds, not words.
	This is not a contest between those who served in our armed forces in that periodor, indeed, in any periodand the Bevin boys. It is about an overdue recognition that, without their effort, we might well not be having this debate today. I tabled early-day motion 1417 earlier this year, calling on the Government to recognise the Bevin boys officially with an award similar to that available to military veterans. I am very happy to tell the House that that motion has attracted 173 signatories, including members of all parties except, sadly, the Scottish National party, none of whose members is here today. I urge all Members who have yet to sign the motion to do soeven members of the SNPto show their solidarity and support for those veterans of world war two.
	I have already raised this matter in the House with the Prime Minister, and with the then Leader of the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon), now the Minister for Europe, who informed the House that his constituency predecessor had been a Bevin boy. I have written to the Prime Minister twice, but I am still waiting for a formal reply. I have also written to the Ministry of Defence and Department of Trade and Industry, and I would like to take this opportunity to thank the present veterans Minister for his understanding approach. However, all the time the MOD is deliberating whether to acknowledge the Bevin boys, their numbers are falling. They are now old men, and some are very ill.
	I have had support on this matter from UK Coal, Scottish Coal, NUM Scotland and a host of other mining-related organisations, in addition to letters of support from families all round the UK. Those letters display something other than support; they display hope that the MOD will have the conviction to acknowledge the service of those conscripted veterans in a personal way, and that is what I believe the MOD has a moral obligation to do.
	The Bevin Boys Association exists today to keep their memory alive and to fight for their cause. I pay tribute to Warwick Taylor for his commitment to the more than 1,800 men who are members of the association, and to my constituent, Fraser Neil, who was responsible for raising the issue with me in the first place.
	Some Bevin boys are household namesJimmy Savile, Eric Morecambe and Brian Rix, to name but a few. I must take the opportunity to applaud the  Sunday Express, which has worked with me in the campaign for recognition of the Bevin boys' effort. More than 1,000 readers have returned coupons to the  Sunday Express calling for the Government to do the right thing, and that is what I call on the MOD to do today. I know that I mentioned that Jimmy Savile is a former Bevin boy, but I hope that we do not have to rely on Jim to fix it. The MOD should fix it, and the sooner the better.

Mark Pritchard: I, too, pay tribute to our armed forces throughout the world.
	I also want to put on record my thanks to all military and civilian staff serving our armed forces in Shropshire. I pay tribute especially to the excellent work of the Army Base Repair Organisation. Earlier this year, the Government announced that ABRO was to close. I thank the Minister of State for rethinking that decision and giving ABRO a stay of execution, certainly for the next three years. I also pay tribute to the Defence Committee and its Chairman, my right hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), for highlighting in their Afghanistan inquiry the role that ABRO needs to play and is playing. I hope that the Minister might today throw a further lifeline to ABRO and say that, given the possible three-year deployment in Afghanistan, and the possibly longer commitment in Iraq, ABRO's life will be extended beyond three years and into the next decade and beyond. I hope that we can be encouraged on that.
	I also pay tribute to the Defence Logistics Organisation in my constituency and to all those who work at Sapphire house in the neighbouring constituency of Telford. Of course, the Minister will know that an announcement was made this week that might see 400 job losses at the DLO. Notwithstanding the points made on both sides of the House about whether the merger of the Defence Procurement Agency and the DLO is right or wrongand I question whether it is rightone must ask whether the timing is right. The Secretary of State said earlier that the timing of any decision to change things can never be right. To return to the Afghanistan inquiry, one of the key reasons for the ABRO decision being changed was the timing of the troop deployment to Afghanistan, where vehicles suffered attrition due to rough terrain and needed to be repaired more frequently and quickly to be redeployed to the front line. The same logic applies to the DLO.
	We have rightly paid tribute to our armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, but let us not forget those in Gibraltar, Cyprus, the Falkland Islands, Congo and many other places around the world. All those forces require logistical support. I therefore hope that the Government will rethink the decision about the DLO, as it rethought the decision about ABRO, which I put on record that I welcome. There is time to do so. There is no shame in the Government saying that they have concluded during the consultation that the timing is wrong, and that the principle of whether the DPA and DLO should be merged can be discussed later.
	I may be in a minority among Conservative Members on this matter, but perhaps Parliament needs to debate at some point whether privatisation of our defence sector has gone too far. Do we now just want to outsource responsibility without establishing that output will be better than it is in the public sector? The public sector contains both military personnel and civilians who have served in the forces and have a military ethosa public service ethos. Such people are often reluctant to go into the private sector, and not just for reasons to do with pay, terms and conditions and TUPE arguments about the protection of employment. They joined a military organisation because they wanted to be part of a military organisation.
	That leads me to the defence training review and RAF Cosford. As I said here earlier today, unemployment in Shropshire rose by a whopping 30 per cent. between May 2005 and May 2006. With manufacturing outflow and the retail sector under threat in some of our market towns, there has never been a greater need to protect Shropshire's defence sector, and that includes the 2,200 personnel, both military and civilian, at RAF Cosford. I hope that the review will be objective, measured and non-political, and will conclude that the experience, dedication and commitment required in defence training is best provided by the personnel at Cosfordand, indeed, throughout the west midlands technology corridor and supply chain, and in the aerospace cluster in Shropshire and surrounding counties.
	I am proud that Combat Stress has a facility in my constituency. The staff at Audley court in Newport, Shropshire, do a marvellous job. I have been there several times, met staff and clients and listened to many of their stories, which are varied. The people there have been involved in different conflicts, some recent, some dating back to the Falklands, and some even dating back to the second world war. Those stories are extremely moving. It is absolutely right for the Government to consider improving mental health services for our armed forces personnel.
	We know that without early intervention, post-traumatic stress becomes post-traumatic stress disorder, which is far harder and more costly to treat. I think that those who are currently in the armed forces receive the message that people with mental health problems are not being treated well, and that that lowers morale. I think it also causes people to wonder whether they should join up if our veterans are not treated properly.
	That in turn leads me to the issue of the joint forces payment agency and the Armed Forces Personnel Administration Agency. A number of constituents have contacted me over the last few months about late payments, lost documents and redundancy settlements that have not been given to them in time. That has caused them real financial hardship. I hope the Minister will ensure that those agencies abide by their duties and fulfil their obligations to those who have served the country and Her Majesty's armed forces over many years. It is absolutely right for them to be treated as well when they leave as when they arrived. Perhaps if they are treated better when they leave, more will join.
	It strikes me as a tragic paradox that while our armed forces are fighting for democracy overseas, when in theatre they are unable to exercise their own democratic rights and vote over here. I hope that the Minister will give us some assurance that when the next general election comes along, everyone who serves in Her Majesty's armed forces, whether military or civilian, will be given plenty of time to register their votes so that they can exercise their democratic rights and choose the Government whom they want to serve this country.
	Some months ago, I raised the issue of the haemorrhaging of special forces personnel to private security companies. The then Secretary of State for Defence said that a statement on the matter, either written or oral, would be presented to the House. It may have passed me by, but I am not aware of any statement on how the Government are dealing with the ongoing haemorrhage of special forces, such as members of the Special Air Service, the Special Boat Squadron, the close protection trained Parachute Regiment and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Robert Key) mentioned earlier, the Royal Military Police. Retention of such personnel is a problem and I hope that the Minister will give us some idea of how the Government are dealing with that important matter.

Michael Penning: May I say to my hon. Friend that this does not involve only the elite groups that he mentioned? Experienced non-commissioned officers from the front-line infantry units are also leaving to join security companies. When I visited the Scots Guards in Amarah, the commanding officer told me that he was very worried that, when he returned to Germany, many of his senior NCOs would purchase their discharge and go back to Iraq to gain a massive increase in their salary, thus diminishing the regiment's ability to train.

Mark Pritchard: My hon. Friend makes a very good point, as he always does. He is absolutely right to say that not only are members of the elite regiments attracted to the private security sector, but people from the Guards and other infantry regiments are interested as well. That is absolutely understandable given the professionalism and training of Her Majesty's armed services [Interruption.] Yes, senior NCOs are particularly in demand by private security companies and understandably so. It will be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say about that.
	Expenditure is a thorny issue in this place, but I am a Back Bencher and I can speak freely, but with caution. Are the pay levels for our armed forces personnel right? I believe that I am right to say that UK armed forces are the only service personnel who have to pay tax on their income while serving in foreign fields. I hope that the Minister will look further into that and see whether some exemption or tax relief can be made for our armed forces while they are serving in foreign countries.
	The cadet forces have already been mentioned and I declare an interest as president of Telford and Wrekin air cadets and as a former, albeit junior, air cadet in the Herefordshire squadron. I welcome the Government's commitment to expand the cadet forces, but I note that it applies specifically to the combined cadet forces. That is fine, but I appeal to the Minister not to overlook the fine work of all the civilian and military voluntary staff of the Air Training Corps and our marvellous cadets throughout the country. Please do not overlook the Army Cadet Force and certainly do not overlook the marvellous work of the sea cadet corps. Many of these groups are struggling for funds. The Government are right in what they are doing, but it would be a shame if concentrating on the CCF meant that the Air Training Corps, the Army Cadet Force and the sea cadet corps lost out.

James Gray: I think I am right in pointing to a strange anomaly whereby the sea cadets are not funded by the Ministry of Defence, but entirely charitably [Interruption.] I note that the Under-Secretary is shaking his head and he will no doubt correct me if I am wrong, but it might be an occasion for the MOD to consider whether the sea cadets should be put on the same footing as the Army and air cadets.

Mark Pritchard: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. From memory, I believe that the current position is that the sea cadets have 60 per cent. funding from the Ministry of Defence and 40 per cent. charitable funding through the excellent work of the Sea Cadet Association. It is unique in receiving less money than the other cadet forces and perhaps has less access to facilities as a result of naval bases being on the coast while sea cadet units can be far inland, as in the case of landlocked Shropshire. I hope that the Government's move towards supporting certain youth services and cadet forces does not lead to others being overlooked.
	The Commonwealth War Graves Commission was mentioned earlier. I congratulate it on doing an excellent job, and I hope that the Government will ensure that it is looked after in any future spending review. It is absolutely right that our war graves be maintained, and that our fallen heroes are honoured in the way that befits their sacrifice. However, I hope that the Minister will ensure that the history of our wars continues to be taught in schools, and that there is not a slippage into political correctness. I hope that it is not decided that some of the sacrifices that have been made on our country's behalf are too horrific for young people to hear about. I encourage the Minister to speak to his colleagues in the Department for Education and Skills, and to see whether it and the MOD can co-operate to enable children to visit war graves in continental Europe. If that is too costly, perhaps they could visit places such as Brookwood, in Surrey, and war graves in Cambridgeshire and throughout the country. Indeed, they could even visit their own local first and second world war memorials.
	Does the Minister know whether the Prime Minister has found time to visit the sick and injured personnelif he has such knowledge, it has passed me by thus farwounded in recent wars such as those in Afghanistan and Iraq? Many people would be very surprised to hear that the Prime Minister, notwithstanding his busy diary, had not found time to visit those personnel, given their sacrifice and the fact that it was pretty much the Prime Minister's lead that resulted in our troops being sent to the front line. I should be interested to hear the Minister's answer to that question.
	Finally, I want to pay tribute to all colleagues present in the House today. This has been a good-spirited debate, and let us remember that we are all in this together. It is important that we succeed in both Iraq and Afghanistan [Interruption.] Oh yeswe are all in this together. The personnel about whom we have spoken today deserve everything that we are able to give them in terms of kit and equipment, financial support and, most of all, moral and political support.

Brooks Newmark: Like my hon. Friends the Members for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) and for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin), I begin with a tribute to the men and women who serve in our armed forces. Even when they are properly resourcedI hasten to add that I am still not convinced that they arethey work day in, day out in the most challenging circumstances imaginable.
	I recently had the opportunity to visit the headquarters of the Ministry of Defence police in Weathersfield, in my constituency. Whether they are guarding the UK's nuclear arsenal or other critical defence establishments, the MOD police do not live in the limelight. They stand apart from the other armed services, but, like those services, they are quietly efficient and utterly vital to this country's interests. I mention the MOD police not only because they are headquartered in my constituency, but because I suspect that they are typical of much of this country's defence establishment, in that they do an essential job that goes largely unnoticed and unappreciated.
	In his contribution to the armed forces debate in another place last week, Lord Drayson was adamant that there was no public relations crisis facing the military. As evidence, he cited a MORI poll that confirmed that 80 per cent. of the population regard our armed forces as among the finest in the world. I have no doubt that they enjoy even greater support among the general public than that poll suggests, but my point is that, when most people think of the armed forces, they think, on the whole, of past services rendered. They are less quick to think of those who are on active service today, using sub-standard equipment, waiting hours or days for a flight home for deployment or worrying about their families living in inadequate accommodation back at home.
	I congratulate the Government on instituting veterans day. It is right that we remember our veteran servicemen and women, but it is time that we placed greater emphasis on those serving today, and on the need to ensure that they will continue serving our country. We also need to look ahead and take action to ensure that generations of new recruits will want to follow them into the services. Recruitment relies on good public relations and, although I do not doubt the very high esteem in which the services continue to be held, we must admit that there is a difference between respecting an organisation and wanting to join it.
	I was struck by the example of Field Marshal Sir William Robertson, who served as Chief of the Imperial General Staff during much of the great war. In 1919, he became the first man in the British Army to rise all the way from the rank of private to the rank of field marshal. But despite that conspicuously successful career, his working-class mother was horrified when he enlisted. He records her saying in his autobiography:
	I will name it to no one; I would rather bury you than see you in a red coat.
	That late 19th-century distrust of the military is something to which we would not wish to return.
	As we all know, steady recruitment is the lifeblood of all our services. It depends, in no small measure, on the families of potential recruits trusting that they will be looked after and not placed in unnecessary danger because of inadequate equipment or operational overstretch. The issue of trust is central to this debate because there are increasing signs that servicemen on active duty no longer trust that they will receive adequate support from the Government.
	My father-in-law, Sir John Keegan, is a distinguished military historian, which, I must admit, is something of an advantage when it comes to preparation for a debate on the armed forces. As we are commemorating the 90th anniversary of the battle of the Somme, I would like to quote briefly from one of his books, The Face of Battle, which contains an analysis of that campaign from the perspective of the ordinary soldiers who fought in it. He says of the British Army of 1916 that
	it was a trusting army. It believed in the reassurances proffered by the staff. It believed in the superiority of its own equipment over the Germans'. It believed in the dedication and fearlessness of its battalion officersand was right so to believe. But it believed above all in itself.
	Some 90 years later, the essentials remain the same. The armed services are still trusting and that human quality sometimes does them a disservice. I hope that we do not have a military catastrophe in Iraq or in Afghanistan to shake the foundation of that trust, as happened on the Somme.
	I have already said a little about recruitment, but the need for it would be minimised by focusing more on retention. There are many factors affecting retention but some of the most significant are easily identifiable and must be addressed. Indeed, I ask the Minister when he will give a commitment to serving soldiers that they will not be hauled through the civil courts for actions undertaken while on deployment and operating under the most difficult circumstances.
	Another R is for reservesalso lacking, both in the strategic sense of having some ability to adapt to changing circumstances which require an increased commitment, but vital in enabling our forces to sustain their current level of commitment. What are the Government doing to tackle that overstretch? Several hon. Members have already asked that question.
	Overstretch should be a transient fault to be regretted and avoided wherever possible. But when overstretch becomes systemic, it is not really overstretch at allit is underinvestment. If our armed forces are stretched too far they will lose their elasticity and ability to react quickly and decisively. Eventually, they will snap. For example, the 1st Battalion the Light Infantry is currently on its third tour of Iraq in three years, and there can be little incentive for the men in that battalion to remain in the Army. What are the Government doing to ensure that the interval target of 24 months between deployments is met for all our troops?
	The lack of resources is the biggest threat to retention. The Government have reassured the House repeatedly that commanders in the field will be given what they need to succeed. I am not reassured, especially when Ministers quote senior commanders such as Lieutenant General David Richards, who said:
	Bottom line, I am content with what I have and I have the resources to carry out the mission.
	I am not reassured because it is hard to imagine a military officer admitting that he or his men are not up to the task in hand, however justified that might be by the lack of resources. Soldiers just get on with the job, whatever resources are at hand, but the persistent lack of resources is not the only problem facing the services.
	The extended deployment of soldiers often interferes with another Rrehabilitation. Professor Guy Chapman was a young officer during the Somme campaign. He wrote:
	If you start a man killing, you can't turn him off again like an engine.
	Civilians take it for granted that their employers will offer them training, career management, counselling and a range of other services. In our cash-strapped armed services, those are the first things that are cut, and even medical care is now threatened. The net result has been that a tide of service personnel have left the forces as ill equipped to deal with civilian life as they were on active service.

Nicholas Soames: I agree with much of what my hon. Friend is saying, although it is to the MOD's credit that resettlement training in the Army is brilliant. However, does he agree that the big problem faced by people leaving the forces is that of adjusting to a civilian life?

Brooks Newmark: My hon. Friend brings me to my very point. The shameful statistic is that between one quarter and one fifth of rough sleepers have served in our armed forces. That is the point that I tried to make when I intervened earlier on my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox).
	The Government's duty of care to service personnel does not rest on a narrow legal definition, nor does it end when people leave the services. What are they doing to ensure that personnel receive more than just combat experience when they enlist?
	My final R is retirement. It is the final stage of the through-life cost of service personnelor, I should say, it is the final stage of the through-life duty owed to them by the Government. The Government must do more than honour veterans in spirit, or by giving them a badge. Veterans deserve more than our intangible respect: they need continuing support, medical and psychiatric but financial tooby which I mean better pensions.
	I have spoken briefly about the five Rsrecruitment, retention, resources, rehabilitation and retirement. Unless we address each of them, we will not have armed forces that are, to use the Government's mantra, fit for purpose.
	I conclude by quoting Lord Garden, who warned in the other place that a renewal of the duty of care owed to servicemen is needed urgently if we want to avoid finding ourselves
	with a great deal of shiny equipment but nobody to operate it.[ Official Report, House of Lords, 29 June 2006; Vol. 683, c. 1369.]
	It seems that much of our equipment is not in fact all that shiny, but I urge the Minister to pay heed to the warning.

Tobias Ellwood: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr. Newmark) on an interesting and powerful speech. He covered some important issues. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) who covered myriad subjects, which broadened the debate and reflected the wide range of topics that we have talked about today.
	My first point was to have been my congratulations to the Secretary of State on staying in the Chamber throughout the entire debate. Unfortunately, he has just sneaked off, but I am pleased that he could participate in much of the debate. I realise that he has many other commitments.
	In his opening remarks, the Secretary of State said how proud we all are of what our armed forces do. He talked of their high reputation across the world. He then warned us to be careful when trying to analyse or quantify what our military are actually doing. I take heed of those words, but it is our duty in the House to make sure that we understand what is happening. The Army, Navy and Air Force do not have union representation to give voice to their concerns. There is no one they can run to, so it must be an objective of the Housecertainly for those of us who have worn a uniformto make sure that if our Government task our military anywhere in the world, there is correct scrutiny in this Chamber. Our loyalty to our armed forces should not be questioned if we raise awkward questions about them.
	I turn to our commitments and our defence personnel. Sadly, there have been cuts of up to 40,000 in our armed forces since 1997. Since the Labour Government came to office, the Army is down by 9,000, the Navy is down by 10,000 and the RAF is down by 16,000. Sadly, it would now be possible to fit every member of the British Army into Wembley stadiumif it were ever finished. That is a sad indictment of the size of our forces. This year, spending will be 2.2 per cent. of gross domestic productthe smallest proportion of national wealth since 1930. We have more commitments and fewer people to do the job, which equals overstretch. As anybody in the military can tell us, experiencing overstretch and cost cuts at the same time leads to the demise of morale.
	Many of our current operations around the world are with NATO, whether in IFOR, the implementation force or ISAF, the international security assistance force or others. NATO is the cornerstone of Europe's protection and defence and has served us well for the past 50 years. The target is that all participating nations spend 3 per cent. of their GDP, but we are not doing sonor are other countries. That illustrates the problems that we and other countries face at a time when we expect so much from our armed forces.
	We are gaining experience, however. NATO forces went into Bosnia and Kosovo and they are now in Afghanistan. However, much co-ordination work remains to be donewhether in respect of equipment or troop operations. NATO is searching for a new role. During the cold war, its mission and its objectives were clear; today, things are not so clear. NATO was designed to defend Europe but it is now going to areas such as Afghanistan, into which one would not expect it to wander. Work could be done in Brussels to consider how ISAF and NATO-operated forces could be used not so much for peacekeeping but for the next stepreconstruction. NATO is an organised and effective body with a chain of command, but there is a limit to its involvement and Ministers in Brussels should consider such things.
	I served in Bosnia and, when peace could be maintained, our troops did not simply carry out guard duties; we helped to rebuild schools. It was not part of our mission, but we decided that it was the right thing to do to help win over hearts and minds. Unfortunately, that is not happening in Afghanistan because it is not part of the remitit would be almost a step too far.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) referred in his opening comments to the impressive number of countries involved in Afghanistan: 37 is the latest totalmore than there are in NATO. However, the caveats for those forcesthe limitations placed on them by their Governmentsaffect overall command and mean that their effectiveness is limited. There are varying rules of engagement that prevent soldiers from particular nations from going out on patrol, engaging with the enemy or even getting into a vehicle. That makes it difficult for the ISAF commander to mobilise his troops in a unified fashion.
	On paper, 37 countries looks effective, but in fact there are only four soldiers from Austria, 10 from Luxembourg, four from Switzerland and 106 from Denmark. The numbers are small when we consider what those countries could be contributing and when compared with what Britain, the United States and other countries are doing. Again, I urge the Minister, when he goes to Brussels, to ask if they cannot contribute more troops, what they are actually contributing. The participation of 37 nations looks very impressive, but the reality is far different.

James Gray: I agree with my hon. Friend to a degree, but does he accept that the central truth of all modern defence thinking is that there are only two main players in NATOthe United Kingdom and the United Statesin terms both of defence spending and other capabilities? The notion that, somehow or other, we will persuade some of those very small European nations to play an important role in NATO operations is pie in the sky. In fact, the future peace of the world depends on the US and the UK, together with France to a lesser degree, operating in concert.

Tobias Ellwood: My hon. Friend makes a valid point, but that is where we get into the detail, which is beyond the scope of the debate. For example, the huge shortage of heavy airlift could be easily covered by participating countries, but it is too late now. We should have been thinking about that five or 10 years ago. Countries such as Denmark could then say, This will be our thing. The Czech Republic went down that route and became nuclear, biological and chemical warfare specialists. That is what it focused on. Poland has trained a lot of people to help with UN peacekeeping operations. That is the thing that it focused on. We could be doing that, but we need to get the heads around the table and review it. When we are on the battlefield in Afghanistan, it is too late to discover the limitations of the troops sent out there. That affects the rules of engagement that we are working under.
	I reiterate the callswe have heard them today, and they were acknowledged by the Ministerfor more troops in Afghanistan. If we look at the map of Afghanistan and the areas that NATO is covering, we see that an entire province next to Helmand does not contain a single international soldier. That shows the desperate need for more participation, which is vital. I look forward to hearing the statement from the Secretary of State for Defence. I presume that it will come in the next few days. I hope that there is no delay, because lives are at risk in Afghanistan.
	Turning to Afghanistan proper, there are few crises in the world today that are as complex. It has been wrecked by three decades of war and the organs of state are few and fragile. The nation's authority is limited only to a few cities. In fact, it is too soon to call it a country. It is a patchwork quilt of ethnic groups, tribes and communities, thrown over a hostile and often barren land. That is the perfect existence for a nomad or a very small community, but also for a terrorist outfit as well, and it is a complete nightmare for those who are trying to go there to form an overall authority to link control.
	In an effort to expand his authority, President Karzai has developed unholy alliances with all those who can enforce order in the provinces in return for turning a blind eye to their misdeeds, past and present. The biggest challenge for Afghanistan is the fact so many people have been corrupt, but we are now trying to make them turn over a new leaf. We talk about Helmand province's governor as though he is somehow in direct communication with Kabul. Helmand is a long way from the regional headquarters of Kandahar, which is another country away from Kabul. They are so remote from each other that it is a monumental challenge to get any form of authority, even at local community level. The power bases are in the town halls and the local assembliesthe jirgasand the local tribal centres.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I must remind the hon. Gentleman that this is not the appropriate debate in which to have an in-depth analysis of the strategic situation in Afghanistan. The debate is about armed forces personnel, and he must relate his remarks directly to that. There might be other days when one can consider the strategic and political aspects of the Afghanistan situation.

Tobias Ellwood: I am grateful to you for your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Given the effect that the situation is having on British personnel, I felt it relevant to bring it into the debate, but I understand your instructions and will endeavour to stay on the right side of your guidance.
	Some 3,300 British troops16 Air Assault Brigadeare based in Afghanistan, in Helmand province, and I want to analyse the thinking of those of us who were in the forces when the brigade was created. We are talking about a rapid reaction force that was put together. It packs a mighty punch, but it is designed to be lightly armoured. It now finds itself not only doing counter-insurgency work, but guarding villages halls, protected only by sandbags. That is improper. That is not the way in which 16 Air Assault Brigade was designed to be used.
	We have heard a number of examples of British equipment that could be used. The Warrior tank was mentioned. The Canadians are using the Bison, which is a four-wheeled very tough armoured vehicle. It is much better than the Land Rover that we are currently using. The RG-31 is a South African vehicle designed to cater for being hit by or running over land mines. That is the sort of equipment that we need to be thinking about. I hope that, when the Secretary of State for Defence makes his announcement, he will consider the lessons that were learned in Bosnia. Once a general peace was created, we went out in Warrior tanks to do the guarding, which meant that if there were problems, we had something to protect us, rather than simply hiding behind sandbags, which, as we sadly saw at the weekend, is wholly inadequate. We need to review the strength of the forces in Afghanistan. Some 3,300 troops simply with Land Rovers and 12 helicopters is not enough. I will be grateful to hear what the Secretary of State has to say on that matter.
	What is our mission in Afghanistan? Is it designed to deal with insurgency or to help with peacekeeping? Or is it more of a G5 task? Does it involve the building of schools and so forth? It has ended up being a mixture of all those things. There is nothing wrong with that in one sense, but our forces have to match each of those separate missions and at the moment that is not happening. That is why I believe that a review of what we have out there is so important.
	I will not go into what is required in relation to the provincial reconstruction teams. I simply question who is actually in control of those teams. Do they eventually answer to the Secretary of State for Defence, the Foreign Office or the Department for International Development? There is an overlap and confusion of responsibility that will prevent us from making an impact.
	The umbrella of security that our troopsour personnelare trying to create there is fundamental, but we will succeed in Afghanistan only if the reconstruction operation is able to lift Afghanistan off its knees. Our troops will eventually leave. I hope that they will also eventually defeat the Taliban, but when they do, they must make sure that there is not a vacuum left behind. If they do not do that, the Afghani tribes will continue what they are doing, we will leave, and then the Taliban will come back in a few years' time. That is not what we want. There must be an infrastructure and a local economy. Afghanistan is a country that [ Interruption. ] I can see Mr. Deputy Speaker moving, so I will move on to my conclusion.
	I pay tribute to my local regiment, the Devon and Dorsets, which is now based in Basra, under the leadership of Colonel Chris Burtie. I am grateful to the Minister, who managed to organise a visit for me to see the regiment in Basra. Sadlyit is a sign of the timesI cannot really call the regiment the Devon and Dorsets any more. It is shortly to be merged with the Light Infantry and, before the dust has settled on that piece of paper, it is being merged with my own regiment, the Royal Green Jackets, to be called the Rifles. That is a huge transition. That has been a veneer for another slice off the size of our armed forces. It is something that we could well do without.
	It is odd that we are seeing cuts in the infantry, because arguably the infantry in the Army is one of the main reasons why we have the international reputation that hon. Members have mentioned a number of times this afternoon. As I said, our military does not have a union. It does not have a voice with which to shout out and say, I don't like what I'm doing. People end up voting with their feet if conditions get bad, which is why it is important that this Chamber scrutinises what is going on. That is reflected in the fact that, out of 43 battalions in the British Army, only one is fully manned. The other 42 are short of strength. The Territorial Army's target figure from the Government is 41,000. Currently the figures stands at 35,000. We must examine the reasons why there is such a shortfall and try to correct it. I hope that the Secretary of State has received the clear message from the debate that our armed forces are overstretched and undermanned. The success of our overseas missions will suffer unless those problems are addressed.

Mark Harper: We have had an excellent and wide-ranging debate.
	I will start by referring to one of the first points that my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) addressed: the overall background of funding for the armed forces. He identified the fact that we are spending only 2.2 per cent. of gross domestic product on our armed forces, which is the lowest amount since 1930. It is interesting that in the other place yesterday, Lord Drayson admitted that
	as a percentage of GDP, UK defence expenditure has gone down.[ Official Report, House of Lords, 5 July 2006; Vol. 684, c. 229.]
	There was also an interesting exchange in the other place about whether defence expenditure had gone up in real terms. My noble Friend Lord King of Bridgwater noted that although there might have been an increase in expenditure in real terms, it has happened at a time of sustained increase in defence commitments. That is perhaps how we square the circle when some Labour Members point to an increase in resources, while many hon. Members on both sides of the House draw attention to areas of overstretch. Although there have been real-terms increases in defence expenditure, despite the fact that it has fallen as a percentage of GDP, we are asking our armed forces to do more and more at the same time, which is why problems are arising.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring reminded us that the armed forces have been operating above the assumptions in the strategic defence review. Indeed, the National Audit Office military readiness report that was published in June 2005 highlighted the fact that the armed forces had been operating consistently over the planned level of activity during 2002, 2003 and 2004. That has continued, but it cannot continue for ever.
	The Minister of State will knowif he does not, the Secretary of State, as the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, willthat the Government will soon undertake their comprehensive spending review. Will the Minister tell us whether the Secretary of State is planning to conduct a new strategic defence review ahead of the comprehensive spending review? If not, will Ministers at least examine the assumptions that underlie what we ask our armed forces to do? Given the number of the years for which we have been operating above those assumptions and the fact that there is no sign that the dangerous world that we are in will change in the future, it would seem sensible to take account of the tempo at which we have been operating and ensure that the Chancellor delivers in his settlement for the next few years. The Chancellor is trying to create a reputation for himself as a friend of the armed forces, but he will be judged on that military settlement.
	I was disturbed to note from several of my hon. Friends' contributions that the Ministry of Defence has been warned to expect a less than generous settlement, although I hope that that will not prove to be the case. If anyone knows how to negotiate well with the Treasury, I am sure that it is the Secretary of State.

Des Browne: indicated assent.

Mark Harper: The Secretary of State confirms that my assumption is correct. I know that he will be content to be judged on the success, or otherwise, of those negotiations.
	Several Conservative Members pointed out that we will have to make a clear choice by considering both the commitments that we are undertaking and the resources that we have. We must ensure that the resources match the commitments, and if we are not prepared to put the resources in place, we will have to reduce the commitments accordingly.

James Gray: One of the most worrying rumours that is circulating in several areas of the defence force is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is planning to cut the manpower of the Army to some 80,000 in his forthcoming comprehensive spending review. That figure has been repeated to me from several sources. Although such a cut would be absurd, ridiculous and unworkable, we must remember that the Chancellor is a clever fellow and could come along at the time of the comprehensive spending review and say, The figure of 80,000 was nonsensical and I am delighted to be able to announce to the House today that we are going to keep it at 90,000. Would not that be even more worrying?

Mark Harper: My hon. Friend has alerted the House to a tactic that the Government might consider. They might make it sound as if the situation will be desperate so that we will all be relieved when it turns out to be slightly less desperate. However, we have been warned.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring spoke about health services, and drew attention to the excellent medical care that our armed forces receive in theatre. It would be helpful if the Minister, either now or in future, addressed the exit process for armed forces personnel who are discharged for medical reasons. The Royal British Legion and other service charities have told me that sometimes the Ministry of Defence does not alert them to individuals who could benefit from their services on discharge. The traditional data protection argument is deployedI accept that some armed forces personnel have legitimate concerns about personal securitybut with sufficient willpower the problem can be fixed so that personnel who leave the forces can receive those services if they need them. Those charities should be able to work in partnership with the Ministry of Defence so that the transition to post-service life is as seamless and painless as possible.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring dealt extremely well with the issue of mental health, so I shall not attempt to repeat his arguments. However, as I have said before, concerns have been expressed about the armed forces compensation scheme. While it works extremely well for personnel with physical injuries there are anxieties about the way in which the tariff structure works for mental health conditions. Does the Minister of State intend to evaluate the scheme every year to see how it is working, particularly for mental health conditions, as that would be welcomed by organisations that work in the field?
	May I draw attention to another issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring? Given the challenging security situation in Afghanistan, is it not time to consider merging Operation Enduring Freedom and the international security assistance force sooner rather than later? We need, too, to look urgently at American plans for force deployment to make sure that resources are available so that our forces can operate successfully at minimum risk to themselves. Several hon. Members drew attention to the families of service personnel, and it is worth repeating that we owe a debt to them as well as to those who serve. Soldiers in the field are much more effective if they know that their families are well looked after, and it is the families who bear the brunt and suffer pain and anguish when soldiers lose their lives. Our hearts go out to everyone who has suffered over the years, particularly those who have suffered recently.
	Some hon. Members mentioned housing. I accept that the Government have done a great deal. However, to use their own phrase, much has been done but there is still much to do. No doubt the Minister of State will refer to that in his winding-up remarks.
	I want to say something positive about kit. The Defence Logistics Organisation at Caversfield, which procures military clothing, has been swift in responding to changing demands for body armour and in transporting it to theatre. The Secretary of State mentioned the Kestrel and Osprey designs, but I understand that another designaccording to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth), it is known as the Elvis outfit because it has a high collaris critical for personnel undertaking top-cover sentry work. The original design was not particularly comfortable, but the DLO quickly changed it to provide a much more wearable version. That is a good example of the way in which logistical organisations can respond swiftly to concerns in the field.
	One topic that has not been raised, which I hope will not become a big issue in the future although I fear it might, is the roll-out of the joint personnel administration system. We are asking our people to do important and difficult jobs, and the very least that they expect from the Ministry of Defence and the Government is to ensure that we pay them on time. When the JPA was rolled out in April, initially for the Royal Air Force, more than 6,500 servicemen had pay inaccuracies, which is over 15 per cent. of the relevant work force. From written answers we know that the situation has improved in the second pay run, but still more than 1,000 people are affected. By next April the system is due to be rolled out to the whole of the armed forcesover 250,000 peopleand it would be helpful if the Minister gave us some idea of how those plans are progressing and whether he is confident that the right steps will be taken.
	I know from my experience in business that in payroll systems very little inaccuracy, if any at all, is tolerable. We must deliver a system that works 100 per cent. of the time. Servicemen, particularly those in operational theatres, should not have to spend any time at all worrying about whether they will be paid or whether their families will be able to pay the mortgage. That is critical. I know that the roll-out to other parts of the armed forces has been delayed once. The Opposition would prefer the system to be made 100 per cent. accurate before it is rolled out, rather than allowing it to cause grief to our servicemen. The Minister will get our support if that is necessary.
	In the debate there were 13 contributions from the Back Benches, five of which were from the Government Back Benches. Several of those Members were doing their duty and holding the Government to account, probably more firmly than the Government would have liked. There were eight Opposition Back-Bench speeches, which, strangely, were all from the Conservative Benches. There were no Liberal Democrat Back Benchers present at all, as was the case in the last debate on defence policy on 22 June.
	I congratulate the hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) on his elevation to the Privy Council. He drew attention to veterans day. When we discussed that at Defence questions, I was pleased that the Minister for Veterans confirmed that he wants to work closely with the Opposition next year to try to make veterans day as successful as possible, especially with the anniversary of the Falklands approaching.
	The hon. Member for Islwyn also discussed issues relating to medals. Freed from the constraints of office, he has become rather more liberal about wanting to dish out medals than perhaps he was in office.
	The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), who spoke from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, with his well known interest in defence both for wider reasons and for his constituency interest, drew attention to the tremendous contribution in the armed forces of personnel from overseasfrom the Commonwealth and other countriesto whom we owe a great debt.
	I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson) for his comments about my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring. He noted that my hon. Friend had been exemplary in the way he spoke about the difficult operational theatre in Afghanistan, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for that generous tribute. He held the Government to account very effectively about the Type 45 destroyers. We managed to bid him up from six to 12 in the time that he was speaking. I hope the Minister of State will tell us what progress has been made.
	The hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West was keen that veterans day should be a bank holiday. Knowing as we do from the Minister for veterans that the Chancellor is all-powerful, perhaps we can have an update on whether that is likely to happen.

Ann Winterton: Many veterans in my constituency and elsewhere believe that the only real veterans day is Remembrance Sunday.

Mark Harper: I thank my hon. Friend. That point has certainly been made. When we have raised the matter, the Government have made a clear distinction. Remembrance day is very much to commemorate those who have given their lives. They wanted veterans day to be more of a celebration of those who have served. One of the important features of Remembrance day is that it is a day for the whole nation. It is non-partisan and all parties work together to make sure that we can all unite on that day. We must ensure that the same is true of veterans day.
	My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) made a powerful contribution in which he spoke about the exceptional and formidable servicemen and women who serve our nation and drew attention to the first principles that underlie what we ask them to do, which was a valuable reminder of the magnitude of the commitment that we ask of them. He was the first to raise the issue of finance, about which I hope he is wrong, but fear he might be right. He pointed out that we are operating beyond the assumptions in the strategic defence review and that the strategic defence review has not been fully funded. He also pointed out that the performance of the RAF in moving our troops to theatre leaves rather a lot to be desired. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot said that the matter had been drawn to the attention of the Chief of the Air Staff, so it is in hand.
	The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) discussed privatisation and value for money, which is an important issue for her constituents in Llangennech. She also mentioned the importance of the civilian work force, and her constituents will be grateful for her effort in speaking up for them.
	My hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) drew attention to the MOD's inability to task operations adequately. He ranged widely in a thoughtful contribution, and also pointed out that we must match our commitments to our defence spending. At the end of his remarks, he discussed the increased threat that we face from global terrorism and other security challenges.
	The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson) talked about Iraq and focused on the positive aspect of removing the tyrant from that country and the better life that many in that country, particularly in the north, are already experiencing. He also drew attention to the role that our forces and forces of other nations could play in protecting that part of the country and ensuring that the people experience economic development and a better life.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Robert Key) drew attention to a wide range of issues that were not mentioned elsewhere in the debate, such as Army chaplains and the Royal Military Police. He spoke up powerfully for his constituency interest, the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down. He pointed out that Qinetiq is a successful privatisation and discussed Defence Medical Services. He also talked about the issues arising from the important merger of headquarters. Given his constituency experience and his important work on the Defence Committee, we listened to him with great interest.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) raised the issue of equipment. She discussed our reserve forces and the number of personnel available for operations. She also expressed her concern about how successful recruitment will be now that regular and reserve forces are going to be recruited together.
	My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) made a powerful speech, for which I was sorry not to be in the ChamberI had to go and obtain replenishment. He pointed out that if there were a new strategic defence review, it would conclude that the number of servicemen and women available today is far too small. Whenever we have asked our armed forces to perform a task, whether it was a completely military task or even a civilian task, such as during the foot and mouth outbreak, we have always been able to count on them to deliver, but my hon. Friend pointed out that, if we continue with current policies, one day the forces may have to report back to Ministers that they cannot perform a requested task. I hope that we never reach that point. He also said that we need to face up to the need, given the world in which we live, to spend more on defence.
	The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) made an elegant plea for recognition of the wartime efforts of the Bevin boys, which is a plea that other hon. Members have made, too.
	My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) ranged widely over a number of issues, particularly those that are very important in his constituency. In case the Whip is taking notes, I add that he also said that we are all in this together.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr. Newmark) highlighted veterans day. He also talked about the importance of the views of families as regards recruitment. When someone's son or daughter signs up for the armed forces, they must have confidence that their son or daughter will be as well looked after as they can be, and that if things go wrong they will continue to be looked after when they have left the services.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) highlighted the role of NATO and drew attention, from his own experience, to the importance of forces winning the hearts and minds of local populations. He also expressed one or two of his concerns about our operation in Afghanistan, again based on his personal experience.
	Yesterday, at Prime Minister's questions, the Prime Minister said in response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) that our troops in Afghanistan
	are doing the most extraordinary and heroic job.[ Official Report, 5 July 2006; Vol. 448, c. 805.]
	It is my profound hope that when those brave men and women look at those whose duty it is to provide political leadership, they will feel that that duty has been discharged with the same level of commitment and dedication as they show to our nation.

Adam Ingram: As the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper) said, this has been an interesting and wide-ranging debate. He touched on most of the points that were made, but, unlike me, did not have to respond to them but merely recount them. I have the responsibility of trying to deal with the complexity of the debate. I relish that, however. Having spent 10 years in opposition, I realise how easy it is: being in government is much more difficult. The hon. Gentleman rightly referred to the number of Members who spoke, all of whose speeches were substantial and thoughtful and, in sum, added to the greater understanding of what we are trying to do as regards the defence of this country.
	I thank the hon. Members for Colchester (Bob Russell), for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames), for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin), for Salisbury (Robert Key), for Congleton (Ann Winterton), for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray), for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), for Braintree (Mr. Newmark) and for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) for their contributions from the Opposition Benches.
	I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson), who is not in his place. I understand that he has gone off to do a television interview, so he is gainfully employed. I do not know precisely what he is saying; I hope that he is not criticising me. I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson) and for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks). I particularly thank my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig), who is now to be my right hon. Friend. [Hon. Members: Hear, hear.] I wanted to be the first to congratulate him on that from the Dispatch Box. It is a rightfully deserved honour and I know that he will carry it with pride. I hope that I get the opportunity to be at the Privy Council when he is sworn in, because I would be very pleased to do so.
	In opening the debate

Julian Lewis: What about the Liberals?

Adam Ingram: I did mention a Liberal in passing; the hon. Gentleman may have missed it. I am not doing any political knockabout at this stagemaybe later on.
	In opening the debate, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set out to highlight the importance of our people in everything we do. Ultimately, unless we have well trained, properly resourced, highly motivated and dedicated personnel, we cannot deliver on the arduous and difficult tasks we set ourselves, whether they be in Iraq, Afghanistan, sub-Saharan Africa or elsewhere. I shall touch further on that in response to some of the points made in the debate.
	In paying tribute to our front-line personnel, it is right that we recognise at the same time the essential and vital role played by civilians in the many and varied functions they undertake. My hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) and the hon. Members for Mid-Sussex and for The Wrekin referred to the announcement that we made on Monday, which was a major announcement affecting thousands of those civil servants. I want to comment further on that before dealing with the other issues that were raised in today's debate.
	The Defence Logistics Organisation and the Defence Procurement Agency are two major organisations, which employ between them a staff of some 24,500, with a combined budget of 11 billion. Given their importance to the provision and support of our front line, it is right to try to put in place an effective, efficient and properly focused organisation, which is dedicated to the acquisition and through-life support of the battle-winning equipment on which our armed forces depend.
	I do not hide from the fact that our announcement is radical and ambitious. I appreciate that it will mean major change and upheaval for so many of our loyal and hard-working staff, who have given sterling service over the years, especially over the recent period. It is not an easy decision to make, knowing that it will result in the closure of facilities, thus adversely affecting many hundreds of our personnel and their families.
	However, I fundamentally believe that what we are doing is right. At the end of this process, we will have a new organisation, which will employ fewer staff than were employed by the DLO alone in 2004. Alongside that, as the hon. Member for Salisbury pointed out, we will have a new combined Army headquarters based on one site at Andover North. We will have released resources through base and facility closures at Telford, Andover South and subsequently at RAF Brampton, Caversfield and Sherborne between now and 2010-11. The efficiencies achieved from that will be reinvested to meet our front-line requirements.
	With my noble Friend Lord Drayson, the Minister responsible for defence procurement, I spoke on Monday to more than 700 of our personnel in Bristol and Bath. That is why I was not here for the urgent question and response. I know that many questions remain unanswered about the detailed implementation of our new proposals, but what struck me most was the staff's willingness to accept the need for another period of change. I do not claim that that is true of everyone who is affected, but members of that large part of the DLO-DPA structure were markedly up for the change, even though they knew that it was going to be difficult.
	It is now up to Ministers and the senior management responsible for those changes to ensure that our objectives are achieved and that those members of staff whose jobs will go are properly treated. As ever, all that has been announced will be subject to full and proper consultation with the trade unions and staff interests.
	The hon. Member for Mid-Sussex rightly said that the Conservative manifesto at the previous election proposed doing exactly what we are now doing co-locating the DLO and the DPA. The argument of the hon. Member for The Wrekin was a wee bit like angels dancing on the head of a pin. He tried to say that he understood the justification for the change but that it should not happen now. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that there is probably never a right time for change because one can always find good reasons for putting off making the right decision. I know that, having driven through some significant change in the Ministry of Defence in recent years. I believe that all our changes have proved successful so far. They have been handled with skill by the management and, more important, they have been absorbed by the staff.
	The hon. Member for The Wrekin also mentioned the announced closure of a part of the Army Base Repair Organisation that affected his constituency. The background to that was that the work flow had disappeared. We could not keep part of an organisation going if the work had gone. That forced those who were considering what they needed in the form of support and armoured vehiclesin this case, the Army, through Commander-in-Chief Land Commandto examine the matter. They determined that there was a further requirement and found the resource. Consequently, we reconsidered the matter and a change was made accordingly. Flexibility has to be built into all those processes. It is why we have consultation and why we have to be careful when we move forward with complex changes. However, the sound principle of what we are trying to achieve will bring us great benefits in defence in the years to come.

Mark Pritchard: The Minister says that change is never welcome but nevertheless needs to be introduced. He also said that the timing is never right. However, would not a better time be when we were not faced with two major conflicts? Would not it be better to introduce those changes to the DLO and the DPA when the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts are over?

Adam Ingram: I can see why the hon. Gentleman is a Conservative; he wants no change other than at some future point that will never come.
	We have driven through some fundamental changes, all of which were criticised at the time. None of the criticism was founded, however. I am not saying that everything has gone 100 per cent. smoothly; nothing is perfect. However, where we have had to adjust, we have adjusted. That will apply equally in this case. We have also undertaken a major transformation of our armed forces during a period when we are asking so much more of them. If we had not done so, the RAF, the Navy and the Army would not be best placed to be expeditionary. The transformation is still under way; not all the Army has been Bowmanised, because of long lead times and the high amount of investment in network-enabled capability necessary to ensure that we have the best integrated tri-service approach and delivery for the commanders, wherever they are, to have the proper effect in the field. However, all those changes are being driven through, because those who have to deliver at the sharp endI include civilians in thatrealise that there are better ways of doing things.
	This transformation is not being driven by some kind of political lexicon; it has not been lifted off a shelf, or out of a book called Let's Have a Go at Defence. The very opposite is the case. It is happening organically. There are better ways of doing things, and Ministers are heavily engaged in the definition as well as in the engagement and delivery of the transformation. That will remain the case throughout this complex and important change.
	The hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) made a solid and effective contribution, and one or two of his points need to be addressed. I do not think that he was in the Chamber when my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, North-West made his speech, but it was interesting to see the realisation of the enormity of what we are seeking to do, and the skill with which we are trying to work through some of the difficult points of difference.
	I shall deal with some of the issues that the hon. Member for Woodspring raised. He mentioned the level of spending. These points are becoming a bit old hat, but they none the less need to be repeated, because there are different versions of how they are to be viewed. As a percentage of gross domestic product, defence spending is sitting at 2.2 per cent., and that will be the case for the next two years. That is higher than the European average, so we are actually spending a considerable [ Interruption.] Well, hold on. In relation to what our allies are spending, we are above the average. Interestingly, we have a big and successful economy, so let us look at how this figure comes out in real terms. The 3.7 billion more in the last spending round was the largest sustained real-terms increase for 20 years. We are asking people to do more with all that money, and it will all then have to be balanced as we go into the next spending round.
	The hon. Gentleman also mentioned recruitment and retention. In regard to retention, people are always asking whether we are haemorrhaging staff, and if so, what is the scale of the problem. In regard to recruitment, people worry whether we are hard up against targets that we are nowhere near to achieving. Neither of those characteristics applies. By dint of a lot of very hard effort, we have been able to work against some of the difficulties that we have faced in that area.
	As of 1 April 2006, the tri-service manning level stands at 182,980, which represents 98.4 per cent. of the requirement target of 185,920. That is the average, but as we look at the different services, we find that they are all sitting on or around that high level. Indeed, the RAF's strength stands at 46,900, which represents 99.2 per cent. of the requirement. That is a shortfall of only 390. We cannot be complacent, however; we need to recognise that these are issues.
	The same applies to the voluntary outflow rates. We hear a lot of storiesthey turn out to be no more than thatabout haemorrhaging taking place. The reality is somewhat different, however. By comparison with the previous year, voluntary outflow rates have increased slightly, by 0.3 per cent. for officers and by 0.1 per cent. for other ranks. That is not as dramatic as many would lead us to believe. That does not mean that we do not have issues to address; unquestionably, we do. However, the situation is not as many people try to present it.

Nicholas Soames: I accept entirely what the Minister says, but does he understand the real worry in the Army about the number of senior warrant officers leaving, whose families cannot maintain their equilibrium at the current rate of deployment? That is a very serious matter for the Army.

Adam Ingram: The real core strengths lie in those groups with more than 10 years of experience, in all the theatres in which we have engaged, whether Northern Ireland, Sierra Leone, Iraq or Afghanistan. Yes, there may be issues, and we must attend to those. In relation to the similar point made by the hon. Member for Woodspring, a hard logic must be appliedif people are leaving because we are busy, we must be less busy, which means that we should not be in certain theatres [Interruption.] There may be other answers, and I would be interested to hear what they are. Given that warrant officers or sergeants cannot be recruitedthey have to growwe must do our best to encourage them to stay. We have applied various solutions at other pinch points over the years, such as golden handshakes or handcuffs, depending on our approach. That might become an issue in future. Such people are very dedicated, but we understand that there are family problems, to which I shall refer later.
	We have had to address the pinch points, because it is not just a question of that cohort of sergeant-majors or warrant officers but of the enabling trades. Part of our approach to the Army's future structure was to reconfigure, to examine where the pinch points were and to reinvest what came out of one end of that structure in those pinch points. We said that we would reinvest about 3,000 posts, and we are making progresswe have cut the shortfall by 600. We are still some way short, but that is not because of lack of effort or determination. There are other problems that we need to address. We must address the harmony and pinch point issues and the specifics of certain groups of voluntary leavers. There are no easy solutions, but we must address the issues before we can find solutions.

Bernard Jenkin: The Minister implies that the only way to ensure that commitments and resources are matched is to reduce the commitments. He could return to the original strategic defence review, consider the tour intervals and cycles planned in that document, and extrapolate the commitments into that calculation. He would probably come up with an Army of about 130,000, which is what he needs to meet the Army's current level of commitment. That is the choice facing the Governmentwhether to cut the commitments or increase the resources.

Adam Ingram: It is not just a case of increasing resources. For any spending Department, increasing resources is always welcome, but we must ensure that resources are properly spent and balanced. That is why other fundamental changes are taking place, which are strongly resisted. I have said previously at the Dispatch Box that we must drive through 2.8 billion of efficiency savings as part of the last settlement, and that if we do not do so, that will hit the front line. We are well on the way to achieving that, because we have been determined to do it. With everything that we have done, it has been a case of, Fix this, Minister and Secretary and State, but don't do it if it affects me. We must face up to some harsh realities.
	I have given the figures for the manning level. We have reduced requirement levels, but we are still not hitting 100 per cent. We have thrown millions of pounds at recruitment campaigns, and we are still finding recruitment difficult. That is because other job opportunities in the marketplace out there are much more attractive. Moreover, imminent demographic change in some parts of the country means that we will not be able to recruit from a population of the size to which we are accustomed. There is also the fact that more young people are choosing to undertake further and higher education. If we do not manage to attract the 9,000 people under 18 whom we are required to recruit each year, we may lose that recruitment source. Those are the issues that the human resources planners must tackle.
	I am aware of the problems. This has been a good debate, which has featured agreement on and understanding of certain issues. Let us now understand the complexity of what Ministers, indeed all of us, must address.

Liam Fox: Given the recruitment campaigns that have taken place and the market position that the Minister correctly described, why has recruitment to the Royal Air Force plummeted far more than recruitment to the Navy or the Army?

Adam Ingram: I have no easy answer to that question, but anyone who deals with manpower planning must follow the curve. A bit of prediction and analysis is possible, but sometimes things happen before we are prepared for them. Is the problem caused by our having changed the nature of the RAF, which is now expeditionary rather than static? There is a different understanding of its purpose now. It may be remembered that it used to stand in bases in Germany and elsewhere, waiting for the Russians to come. Indeed, the same applied to large parts of the Army. Because the requirement has changed across the three services, the tempo and the demand have greatly increased, which puts pressure on key personnel.
	I could make more guesses. Perhaps people are no longer encouraging their families to join the services. We know that there are problems with gatekeepers. The absence of members of the Scottish National party was mentioned earlier. Not so long ago, a member of the SNP said that we should ban visits by recruiting teams to schools in Scotland. That is outrageous and disgraceful, but we must accept that it is a currency and we must take it on.
	It is easy for Ministers and others to pay tribute to the exceptional men and women who serve in the armed forces, but we need to work in the community to ensure that every part of it is seized of the enormity of what we face. If we do not have the strength that we need in the armed forces, we cannot defend the interests of this country. I do not think that anything divides us on that issue. We have not been in party political point-scoring mode today.
	Sadly, I have had time to deal with only two or three points. I could not give all the responses that I wished to give, but no doubt I shall be able to return to them. I am conscious of the time; let me end by referring to two vital parts of the armed forces communitythe families who stand by our front-line personnel, and the legions of veterans and their families.
	Given the intensity of recent campaigns and the tragic loss of life that we have experienced, we have sought to give more recognition and support to families. I must be honest: much more needs to be done. I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson), is dedicated to tackling the shortfallswhether in proper housing provision or in the overall welfare packagethat affect our service personnel and their families. A major effort has been made to deliver in many of those areas.
	I have given this example before, but I shall do so again. During a recent visit to 7th Armoured Brigadeotherwise known as the Desert RatsI was struck by how much more we are doing. The Desert Rats established a home rat system, which involves a wraparound enabling the young wives and children of men serving in Iraq to keep in touch with them. I know that 20th Armoured Brigade is doing the same, as will 16 Air Assault Brigade and the Parachute Regiment. We have now realised that so much more needs to be done.
	We have all commented on the veterans and it is very humbling to listen to what they tell us at the various events that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the Under-Secretary and I have attended over recent weeks. It is very humbling indeed
	 It being Six o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Peter Bone: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have listened with great interest to what Mr. Speaker and the Leader of the House have said about providing hon. Members with accurate and speedy responses to parliamentary questions. On 12 June, the Leader of the House stated to me in relation to written questions:
	I have discussed at Cabinet with my ministerial colleagues the importance we attach to proper accountability to Parliament.[ Official Report, 12 June 2006; Vol. 447, c. 885W.]
	On 3 May, I tabled 10 questions to the Home Secretary, specifically relating to Wellingborough prison. TodayI should say, this afternoonI received three answers from the Home Secretary, all dated 29 June but not delivered to me until 6 July.
	I do not understand why an already delayed answer took seven days to reach me. Unfortunately, the three answers were identical. It was a standard reply, issuing me with a copy of a letter from the director general of the immigration and nationality directorate, which had been issued to the public. It did not refer in any way to Wellingborough prison.
	There are only 11 sitting days left until the recess. It is impossible for hon. Members to scrutinise the Government properly if answers are both delayed and totally irrelevant to the questions asked. Are you able, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to direct Ministers to give hon. Members' questions more attention and to treat them with urgency?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: To answer the specific question whether the Chair is able to direct, the answer is obviously no. However, Mr. Speaker has put it on the record that he expects the best possible standard of service to Members in this respect. He cannot be responsible, however, for the content and quality of replies to specific questions and he is not responsible for administrative hold-ups in the delivery of an answer to a parliamentary question. The hon. Member has had his chance to put his latest complaint on the record and I am sure that it will have been noted. Members have to pursue these matters through the available means, and I hope that that will have a favourable impact on the performance of various Departments of State.

Bob Russell: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In a debate that lasted five and a half hours, every Minister and every Opposition Front Bencher took a comfort break, as, indeed, did I. I make no complaint; clearly such breaks are necessary. Unfortunately, however, in my absence, the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) criticised me for not being in my place for about 30 minutes. I recognise that he needs ample time for a lunch or three and he was not in his place for one hour and seven minutes. Is there any procedure whereby I can raise that matter and put it on the record?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I think that the hon. Member has found his method of putting the matter on the record, but whether it was tasteful on his part to do so is another matter.

petition
	  
	Draft Education (Northern Ireland) Order

Kate Hoey: I wish to present a petition on behalf of 15,000 citizens of Northern Ireland, representing the majority of people in Northern Ireland who want the House to understand their anger at the changes to the education system embodied in the draft Education (Northern Ireland) Order 2006. The petition:
	Declares... that there has been no infrastructural audit or costing by Government relevant to the changes that are to be proposed...
	Further declares that it is undeniable that, were the Northern Ireland Assembly to reconvene, legislative proposals on the lines of the Draft Order would not command majority support, let alone the cross-community support required for controversial measures under the Belfast Agreement of 1998...
	Further declares that the decision to bring the Draft Order before Parliament rests with a governing party unwilling to seek the franchise of a single voter in Northern Ireland.
	Further declares that while efforts to restore the Assembly continue, it would be an extraordinary step to pre-empt that happening by effecting this fundamental change within an area of devolved responsibility.
	Further declares that we citizens residing in Northern Ireland wish to be governed with the same respect as citizens residing in Great Britain, and are unable to reconcile the proposals herein referred to with the Prime Minister's recent decision to avoid any confrontation with areas in England choosing to retain their grammar schools.
	The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons revoke the proposals for radical educational change in Northern Ireland embodied in the Draft Education (Northern Ireland) Order 2006.
	And the Petitioners remain, etc.
	 To lie upon the Table.

INSTITUTE OF GRASSLAND AND ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. [Mr. Alan Campbell.]

Mark Williams: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to raise this important issue on the Floor of the House. The Institute of Grassland and Environmental Research, which is based near Aberystwyth, in my constituency, has rightly been described as a Welsh national institution. This is not the first time that the future of this research facility has been debated at Westminster. In 1984, Lord Prys-Davies introduced a debate on the future of the then Welsh Plant Breeding Station. He remarked in that debate that the Welsh Plant Breeding Station was the only agricultural institute in Wales that was grant-aided by the then Agricultural and Food Research Council, and he noted by way of comparison that there were seven such institutions in Scotland. In 1984, the WPBS was facing the loss of 25 scientific posts, and Lord Prys-Davies was quick to point out the effect that those staff cuts could have on key aspects of the station's research capacity, notably its research into dairy systems and pasture quality.
	Some 22 years on, the WPBS is now the Institute of Grassland and Environmental Research, but the theme of today's debate is depressingly familiar. IGER remains the only agricultural institute in Wales, and the Government have seemingly done very little to counteract the concentration of the science base in the south-east of England. Figures from the Office for National Statistics for 2003 show that Wales's share of the UK Government's research spend on Government research establishments is 2.1 per cent. That is surprisingly low, given that 5 per cent. of the UK's population lives in Wales. By way of comparison, Scotland has five agricultural research institutes and 8.6 per cent. of the UK's population, yet it gets 13.5 per cent. of the UK's research spend on Government research establishments. The Government should look long and hard at ways to redress that balance, and I hope that they will grasp the opportunity offered by the new national institute of energy technologiesNIETannounced by the Chancellor, to which I shall return.
	People in Ceredigion and across Wales are justly proud of the work undertaken at IGER. It is unique in Europe in carrying out a coherent research project that links programmes in crop improvement, forage conservation and ruminant nutrition and behaviour to system studies that emphasise land, landscape, soil, water and manure management. It uses its expertise, skills and unique field resources to do that, carrying out research in related areas such as amenity grassland, environmental management and growing crops for energy, the most notable example being its biomass project.
	IGER's influence in sustainable farming extends well beyond Wales. It has a site near Okehampton, in Devon, and an upland site at Bronydd Mawr, near Brecon. It also has a structured knowledge transfer system, through which it shares its knowledge and expertise with some 285 associates. They include the National Farmers Union, the Farmers Union of Wales, grassland farmers, the agricultural supply industry, downstream livestock industries, national and local government and agri-environment agencies.
	The Minister will be fully aware of the drastic effect that reform of the common agricultural policy has had, and will continue to have, on farming. It has resulted in the abolition of direct production subsidies, and continued support for land use projects. That has radically altered the environment in which farmers now work. It has necessitated a different style of research on land use systems that deliver both economic and environmental goods, that promote rural sustainability and a multi-functional landscape, and that develop options to meet the challenges of climate change.
	As that sea change in agriculture occurs, farmers need the kind of support IGER is able to offer more than ever before. Much of IGER's research is cross-cutting. One project, for example, is a red clover breeding project that aims to increase the amount of omega-3 fatty acids in meat and milk, which are said to help children's development. Another seeks to manipulate animals' diets to reduce the amount of methane produceda major factor in climate change. A third is investigating growing crops for energy use.
	All of those research projects, and many more undertaken at IGER, are directly relevant to the challenges that DEFRA and the Government face today. However, this year, DEFRA reduced its sustainable food and farming research spend by 11.5 per cent., which for IGER has translated into a shortfall of some 2 million. Difficult and painful decisions have already been made that were forced on IGER's management by DEFRA's funding decisions. In April, 29 redundancies were announced. The loss of those highly skilled jobs is obviously a major blow to the individuals, but it is also a blow to the local economy.
	Widespread concern remains about the future funding arrangements, and about IGER's future in general. Ministers have stated that the 11.5 per cent. cut is necessary for DEFRA to refocus its research and development strategy on climate change, and I hope that the Minister will tonight explain why the cuts in the sustainable farming and food research sector across England and Wales are justified. DEFRA has a specific responsibility under the devolution settlement for research and development in Wales and the cuts will have a significant knock-on effect on pastoral agriculture, especially dairying, which is still significant in rural Wales where agriculture still employs 7 per cent. of the work force.
	I had the privilege of meeting Lord Rooker and his officials at DEFRA on 12 June. At that meeting, tribute was paid by the Minister and senior civil servants to the quality of work carried out at IGER. But it was made depressingly clear just how DEFRA views its relationship with IGER. DEFRA is IGER's major funder or, in other words, its major customer. It provides 52 per cent. of IGER's incomesome 5.5 million. But DEFRA recognises no current obligation to sustain IGERor any other contractorapart from any views that it might have about its own future needs. DEFRA sees itself as little more than a customer of IGER's. In a written answer to me, a Minister stated that DEFRA had made
	no direct assessment of the socio-economic implications of its decision.[ Official Report, 18 May 2006; Vol. 446, c. 1200W.]
	That decision left IGER with a 2 million shortfall.
	The latest newsletter from RIPSS, which is the research institute and public sector research establishment sustainability study, states:
	Investment in someone else's long-term strategic research capability can appear expensive alongside more immediate policy concerns.
	However, any property-owner knows that, while money can be saved in the short term by neglecting such investment, bigger financial problems are stored up for the future, and so access to the facility may be lost at the time most needed.
	That articulates very well the basis of concern about IGER's funding. I hope that today the Minister will acknowledge the significant impact that DEFRA's funding priorities have on IGER and the surrounding community.
	Several years ago, the Office of Science and Technology carried out the research institute and PSREpublic sector research establishmentsustainability study known as RIPSS. The RIPSS recommendations deal with the relationships between institutes and the Departments that are their major funders. The recommendations are yet to be implemented by DEFRA, and I strongly urge the Minister to state today how his Department will address those recommendations, which would strengthen the relationship between DEFRA and institutes such as IGER, and to outline what part DEFRA will play in the acknowledged need to get major funders to work together. Will he acknowledge that there has to be a degree of sustainability, and of security for their high-skilled research jobs, if research establishments are to function properly?
	I received a letter from the Under-Secretary of State for Wales on 23 May, which stated that
	DEFRA is working with IGER so that they are able to match their skills to DEFRA's needs both now and in the future.
	That suggests that DEFRA may be able to offer some continuity of funding in exchange for a role in strategic management and planning. Is the Minister able to elaborate on that?
	The creation of a national institute of energy technologies was announced in the Budget. With funding of 1 billion, it is designed to further the climate change reduction programme, but we have heard little about how it will work. I hope that we will hear more today, as there is concern that its creation will cause existing skills and centres of excellence to be overlooked. Will some of that funding come to Wales?
	I welcome the new institute but, as I said earlier, there is a feeling in Wales that we are losing out and getting less than our fair share of research spend. Will the Minister give me an assurance that some of NIET's research capacity will be designated for Wales?
	At present, IGER is at a fork in the road, with two possible options for its governance. The first is closer collaboration with Rothamsted Research, which is based in Hertfordshire. There is some overlap with the research that is undertaken there, but there are concerns that IGER would pay a big price for closer alignment. There is a feeling that it would have to sacrifice its independence, and become merely an outreach of a bigger institution over the border.
	Sentiment also plays a part in that. Earlier, I mentioned the importance of the perception that IGER is a Welsh national institution, but there is also some concern about future funding from the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council. Funding for both Rothamsted Research and IGER has been guaranteed until 2011, but there is a feeling that IGER would suffer after that, becoming the weaker and more junior partner. Moreover, some people believe that that would lead to some administrative activities being transferred to the BBSRC, and the consequent loss of more jobs and status for IGER.
	The second option is to build on IGER's strong historic links in Wales and forge a partnership between the BBSRC, DEFRA and institutions in Wales. There is a genuine hope that we can achieve greater collaboration between IGER and the university of Aberystwythwhich is in my constituencyand Bangor university by means of a single funding stream. I was privileged to have an opportunity last month to discuss that possibility with Wales's Minister for Environment, Planning and the Countryside, Carwyn Jones. This second option would allow IGER to retain its financial integrity and independence.
	Under the devolution settlement, the National Assembly for Wales has a duty to promote sustainable development. There is a fear that if control of IGER passed out of Wales, it would be less able to assist the Assembly with its sustainable development agenda. I hope that the Government and relevant officials will do all in their power to encourage talks between the Welsh Assembly, higher education institutions in Wales, and IGER.
	It should be noted that IGER is Wales's only agricultural research institute, and that it employed 300 people before the cuts were made. The comparison with Scotland could not be more stark. There, there are five agricultural research institutes, and a total staff well in excess of 1,000. There is a perception that Wales is being short-changed when it comes to research and development.
	The challenges of globalisation mean that our economy inevitably will undergo a shift, moving from the labour-intensive sector to more knowledge-based industries. The quality of Welsh research and development will be integral to the strength of our economy. In real terms, that means that we need to bring quality jobs to Wales. The 29 jobs that have gone already at IGER represent a major loss to the local economy, and I was disappointed that the Government did not consider the socio-economic impacts of their funding decisions.
	Globalisation, reform of the common agricultural policy and the overwhelming power of the supermarkets mean that the Welsh farming industry is under immense pressure from all sides. Since 1997, full-time employment in Welsh agriculture has halved. If farming is to have a sustainable future IGER has a vital role to play in identifying cutting-edge ways for farmers to modernise and to operate more effectively and efficiently. Reducing funding for agricultural research means abandoning the farming community to face a hostile market without vital research assistance. If the Government are serious about giving Welsh agriculture a sustainable future, they must give our farming research bodies the support and funding they need, and I urge the Minister or one of his colleagues to visit IGER to see the valuable work that is undertaken there.
	IGER has a proud history; it is a talisman for Wales's excellence in science and research. I hope that when the Minister responds he will agree that it needs and deserves a sustainable future in Wales.

Ian McCartney: I thank the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams) not only for bringing the subject of the debate to the attention of the House but also for a well-researched speech that set out, from his point of view, the intellectual and economic case for funding IGER. My noble Friend Lord Rooker is the Minister directly responsible for the issue and I will ensure that he receives a copy of the debate. If there are points that I cannot answer this evening, I am sure that they will be followed up with the hon. Gentleman.
	As a Scotsman who is a Member of Parliament in England talking to an Englishman who is a Member of Parliament in Wales, I point out to the hon. Gentleman that there is no discrepancy in respect of the access of Wales as a nation to research and development. Research council remits cover the whole of the United Kingdom and research is funded on the basis of scientific excellence and the judgment of peer review groups. It would not be proper to allocate funds on an individual country basis.
	The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, too, has a country-wide policy for R and D, and prioritises funding on the basis of scientific excellence. In addition, the Welsh Assembly has a budget of about 50 million for R and D to be spent exclusively in Wales, which is not the case for the English regions.
	I must also point out to the hon. Gentleman that agricultural research carried out in Scotland is available to the whole UK agricultural industry. Similarly, research in biosciences and medical science is available to all the medical teaching and research institutes in the UK. It is a UK effort, based on investment, according to the remit, and judged by peer review.
	I want to set out the relationship between the Department of Trade and Industry's Office of Science and Innovation and the research councils. The Department provides funding to the eight research councils for them to support research, training and knowledge transfer, as well as promoting public engagement with their research. In accordance with the long-standing Haldane principles, decisions on the funding of specific scientific research are taken by councils independently of Ministers. That also applies to research council institutes. It is for individual councils to determine the appropriate level of support for their institutes in accordance with those principles.
	Councils have responsibility for determining the precise role of each of their institutes. Typically, institutes have distinctive missions, which include scientific excellence and knowledge transfer, supporting the knowledge-based economy, providing crucial UK capability and offering the Government independent research and advice.
	The Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council is funded from the DTI science budget to support research and related postgraduate training in the life sciences. The Institute of Grassland and Environmental Research is one of seven research institutes sponsored by the BBSRCmy goodness, what a mouthfulwhich was responsible in 2005-06 for 38 per cent. of its funding. That core funding provides the resources for the basic scientific research carried out at the IGER and enables the institute to enter into a contract with DEFRA and others to carry out the research that they commission.
	The Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council's science budget allocation has more than doubled since 1997, from 183 million to about 380 million for this year. The hon. Gentleman's tenet of a lack of resources is not the case. The huge increases across the field of research and development demonstrate the Department's commitment to maintaining the quality of life sciences research in the UK.
	The council recently published a consultation paper on bio-energy research, based on advice from an expert panel. IGER has the skills relevant to that research, which presents it with new research opportunities for the future. I hope that the hon. Gentleman and DEFRA colleagues can look at that possibility when they meet again.
	Investment in institutes will evolve and change over time to reflect emerging science challenges and priorities. The hon. Gentleman reflected that in his contribution when he said that, some 20 years ago, there was a debate in the House about changing priorities, as a consequence of which the institute evolved. We are now 20 years on, and it is seeking to evolve again. If institutes do not evolve, they die. That is the reality. Research and development priorities change, the nature of what we need to do as a country changes and globalisation changes that again. However, those changing priorities do not mean the end of the institute: it can and should adapt.
	Significant investments have been made or will be made across the piece. For example, the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council is increasing funding for animal health and welfare with a 35 million investment in a new building to house the world-renowned Roslin Institute and Institute for Animal Health neuropathogenesis unit, in partnership with the university of Edinburgh, focused on the veterinary school.
	I could give a whole range of other examples. For example, the partnership with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Veterinary Laboratories Agency is providing consistent additional resources by investing 27 million in a range of projects. The Department of Trade and Industry has invested 27 million. I understand that the total figure is 67 million in those areas.
	Across the piece, in other regions throughout the country, a range of world-class facilities are being provided and constructed to ensure that we as a country are at the leading edge of research and development in a range of key areas. The Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge is another example.
	In the UK, grassland occupies about 70 per cent. of the land area and supports natural plant and animal communities, as well as farmed ones. IGER's research programme focuses on grassland-related sustainable agriculture, with strands impinging on production, environment, amenity and biodiversity.
	I understand that the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council commended the overall quality of the basic and strategic research at the institute. According to its 2005 assessment exercise, eight out of 10 assessed programmes were scored as high international/international or outstanding/good. The issue is one of shifting priorities, not one of saying that the institute cannot make a contribution in the future: it can, but it may well be a different contribution.
	IGER has an annual budget of about 18 million, and 38 per cent. of its funding currently comes from the council, with 40 per cent. derived from external contract income. The council has demonstrated its continued commitment by awarding the institute a 3 per cent. increase in core funding in 2006-07, to 5.3 millionnot a reduction, an increase.
	The increased funding provided by the research council contrasts with the declining trend in income from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Although the Department is a major investor in research at the institute, income received for contract research from the Department declined from approximately 6.4 million in 2004-05 to 5.8 million in 2005-06. IGER expects to receive only some 5.5 million during 2006-07. That was confirmed on 6 June in a written reply from DEFRA in the  Official Report, column 116W. That decline in contract income reflects DEFRA's refocusing of its research needs in line with its Ministers' strategic priorities. It is in the process of a well-publicised shift in science programmes towards environmental objectives, and in particular climate change and energy. That is affecting all DEFRA's land-based science contractors, not just the institute.
	The institute is, and will continue to be, a very important research partner for DEFRA. The institute's facilities and expertise provide a strategic scientific resource for the Department in understanding the environmental footprint of agriculture, in particular in relation to livestock and grassland management. The institute is contributing to all DEFRA's sustainable farming and food cross-cutting research programmes.
	The Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council will make decisions on the future sustainability and the capacities required in its sponsored institutes, including IGER, in the light of available resources, and is discussing funding over the next few years with DEFRA. The institute is in close discussion with the Department over how it can meet the Department's changing research needs. The reason for that discussion is to see whether IGER can take on a new role in the years to come.

Mark Williams: From the outset, I apologise for my overt nationalism. My nationalist colleagues who are usually on the Benches behind me are not here. I appreciate what the Minister said about the UK-wide, global attitudes to research and access to that research. Will the Minister clarify things more in relation to the RIPSS? I appreciate that there has been a lot of misinformation about the issuein talking about cutbacks rather than the effects of renegotiating or reconfiguring contracts. Will the Minister elaborate on his understanding of the Government's responsibility to research institutes? Our figures are slightly at odds. He mentioned 38 per cent. My figure was somewhat larger. But 38 per cent. is still a huge chunk of any institute's income. What are the Government's responsibilities, as part of the RIPSS programme, to such institutes?

Ian McCartney: I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman gets a detailed written reply. The responsibility is well met in the following sense. There has been a huge and sustained increase in income from two sources. First, there is direct income in terms of the overall increase in the research and development budget across the piece. Alongside that, according to the priorities of the various Departmentswhether it is DEFRA, the Department of Health or the Department of Trade and Industrythere has been a significant increase in direct funding in terms of project work.
	Even with those two consistent facts, there are occasions when priorities and needs change. If that did not happen, we could waste resources on research that did not meet our objectives or the long-term needs of our country. Change is inevitable in many ways. The issue is, in making those changesdifficult as they sometimes areare we prepared to continue relationships with institutes such as IGER? The answer is yes. Are we prepared to work with them to find a way of utilising their skill base? The answer is yes. Are we prepared to work with them to find other ways of assisting the transition? The answer is yes.
	I understand the pressures of somebody losing a job, but the hon. Gentleman ought not to be so pessimistic as to write off the institute on the basis that there is a need for transition and change because the priorities have changed. I hope that he will recognise that what I am sayingdifficult though some of it isis that there is a proactive and positive approach from my colleagues in DEFRA. There is also a proactive approach in relation to the overall increase in budgets and research. Additional funding is already being received from the research council. The institute is not being cast aside or cast off on its own. It is going through a period of transition, as other institutes will inevitably do, and are doing, because of changes in the priorities that they have to meet. That is a challenge that has to be met. It was met 20 years ago and I am sure that it will be met this time too.
	The institute needs to continue to develop its business plans. I understand that the research council has developed a strategy for sustainable agriculture and land use and that the research conducted by the institute is in line with those goals. I am pleased to note that the collaboration with higher education institutes, including the university of Wales, AberystwythI think that the hon. Gentleman also mentioned Bangoris a critical element of that strategy. I also
	 The motion having been made at five minutes past Six o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. Deputy Speaker  adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
	 Adjourned at twenty-five minutes to Seven o'clock.